kelpiechick

Corvus, is the collar grab to build opposition reflex or just to line him up straight ? I never taught the method with a collar grab either but if your instructor wants it for some reason (I'm guessing the oppostion reflex and also to prevent a sit/control position) you could try a training tab maybe. Kavik, agree that there a ton of fantastic exercises out there using very minimal equipment. I also think there are a ton of fantastic exercises out there that build on crate games and allow you to use a crate as literally a piece of equipment and to build up a foundation for the equipment first - tunnel entries and 2x2 type entries taught first on the crate come to mind.

I don't think you'd have any problem getting a lot of people to sign up for a lengthy foundation course actually. I can't believe the demand for agility - one of the clubs where I teach has a 12 week foundation class - only equipment is a tunnel, lowered table plus we have ladders, balance discs, perches, travel planks and jump bumps for introducing the Susan Salo set point exercise, rest of the class is flatwork and control and motivation exercises and games - and we currently have a 12 month waiting list the demand is so great. The other club where I teach is almost up to a 2 year waiting list which is a bit scary. And the other agility specific clubs also have extremely long waiting lists or in one case has closed their waiting list. I have no problem with foundation classes on lead, as ours are except for the tunnel and restrained recalls. Problem I have with leads on equipment is the safety aspect, training method is immaterial in this case. Just too easy for a lead to become tangled and cause an accident. You very well may have seen classes where this is the norm but for me that doesn't make it right. Happy to disagree on that one.

I'm confused. One round at the end of the workshop???? Does that mean that the dogs have prior agility experience before being allowed to do a workshop with equipment ? It's good that they are gently introduced to each piece of equipment - so does that mean that they have completed agility foundation class of an absolute minimum of 3 months - and that really is a minimum - to learn how to follow handling cues and to introduce all the handling moves that will be needed to run a course on the flat first. Sorry if I've interpreted this incorrectly and got the wrong end of the stick. Watching this reminded me of how I was taught agility 11 years ago - luckily it wasn't too scary as I am still here to tell the tale - but I am amazed that this type of instruction still exists with the wealth of information about foundation training and its benefits that is readily available. It makes me sad as Victoria already has the reputation in the agility community of being behind the other states and this does nothing to dispel the theory. Dogs on lead doing obstacles are an accident waiting to happen. Dogs doing equipment with minimal foundation training are an accident waiting to happen. It doesn't matter whether you want to do agility just for fun or want to become a little more serious about it, the safety issues are exactly the same. Bundy's Mum this is by no means meant as a criticism of you - I think your dog did an amazing job, as did you, and I hope you can find a club where you will learn a proper foundation first before being allowed to attempt any more obstacles. let alone be allowed to string them together.

Warringal Obedience train at Montmorency primary school ground on Sundays. Google them, pretty sure they have a website and pretty sure they still offer agility as well as obedience. Would Croydon be a stretch from there - another alternative.

Some good discussion.... and I'm quite happy to agree to disagree with some of it. :D I don't think there's a right or wrong way to teach weaves, providing you get the results you want in the end. There are some really good weaving dogs with heads upright but I reckon they are the exception rather than the rule. Also wonder sometimes whether it is breed specific or not for some dogs to want to carry themselves through a bit more upright, Rob's dog would be one that comes to mind there, whereas the head down thing seems to fit more with the BC crouch. For me, the 2x2 encouraged the head down that I wanted. Bec, would be interesting to know how the concept of the reward line was trained with the 2x2 dogs you have seen with more upright heads. Not doubting you for a minute as this seems to be a very misunderstood method for a lot of people, but would love to know. One thing I have seen a few people do that doesn't give good results is to keep adding 2 poles at a time once they get to 4 and leaving gaps between them to create 'stand alone' sets of 2 - does that make sense. ? I found once I had rhythm on 4, it was a quick process to get to 6, then 2 sets of 6, then to close up the gap quickly to get 12. I think a lot of people leave the gap there for way too long. Also, a lot of people confuse speed with drive. If you build the drive into the training process right from the start then the speed will come with understanding, but if the drive for the job is missing then you will never get the speed no matter how you train. Wish I'd understood that a few years ago - going back and undoing stuff to add more drive is a long process, and very frustrating at times - especially with a kelpie that knows way better than you do.

I'm not sure you will see a difference in weaving style with particular methods - all methods can produce good results if applied correctly. Pointing and cheerleading can be applied to any method if someone chooses to do so and don't necessarily indicate a particular style. Some of the more advanced entries usually make me think 2x2 dog but not the actual footwork or style. Go to a trial and pick out 5 dogs you like weaving and odds on are they were all taught with different methods. I have video of 4 dogs weaving taught different ways but can't add it, sorry - on dial up out in the sticks so I don't do youtube. But both my kelpies were taught with channels and there is a world of difference in their style and footwork with the end result, so even though they were taught with the same method I don't think you'd pick it. Nice weaves Kaos btw

Ruby Star you are spot on with your thinking that if a dog is going to be slow then they will most likely be slow no matter the method. (Sorry I had you quoted as well but managed to chop it out and am too lazy to do it again) 2X2's do not focus on precision ahead of speed - except for the actual entries. In fact they encourage head down weaving and driving down the reinforcement line which are both conducive to developing speed when trained correctly. The reason why speed at the entry is not always apparent is that the method teaches bend and collect after making the more difficult entries, something that other methods don't do. One thing I really like about this is that it seems to teach dogs they can enter slowly where necessary then pick up their speed when driving down the reinforcement line. This is a whole other skill in itself as a lot of green dogs will continue weaving down a line of poles at the same speed they enter without realising they can actually speed up once in them. Channels and wam's are great for teaching speed/footwork but don't help with the bend and collect thing. My masters kelpie was trained on channels and can probably make all the entries that my 2x2 dog can make because we trained them, but sometimes when hitting a difficult entry at speed will have a lot of trouble actually bending around the 2nd pole. No such problem with the baby. I have taught 5 dogs to weave now, 2 with the old 'weave pole waltz' method, 2 with channels and my young girl with 2x2's - I am happy with all their weaves and I think that you can use any method if you apply it correctly - but there is absolutely no comparison with the one taught with 2x2 - in speed, enthusiasm and accuracy. Quite possibly this may be just this particular dog and not the method, but for me the results speak for themselves with this dog, and yes, I was a little sceptical when I first watched the DVD in all honesty. Remember also that there are a lot of people out there applying the method incorrectly which doesn't help. You mentioned that there were quite a few criticisms of this method - who makes these criticisms? Those who have actually trained the method ? Those trying to market another method ? Anti Susan Garrett factions ? Those who have watched a DVD so now think they understand the method without every trying to apply it ? All of the above ? Just curious.

Nice ute. Not a fan of dogs in the back of them in any form though. We were walking our kelpies through town once and passed another kelpie tethered in the back of a parked ute. Dog decided he would jump off to say hello to mine and was left hanging by his collar, luckily I was there to get him back in. If it was the only choice of transport I had I would look at : Fibreglass canopy fitted firstly, if that is too costly then I would get crates built in with a canvas cover so they had some protection against the weather and for further safety than just tethering.

December Clean Run's 'Backyard Dog' exercises (Stuart Mah) were all based around offset jumps, some good stuff in there.

What ???? You think mine fit this description in the agility ring ???? Even if I take the tunnel out of the equation ????? They do listen to what you want them to do, it's just that they think they are superior and can do it better, probably right in my case. You can borrow my book - if I ever get around to finishing it that is.

He also writes fiction, wrote the 'High Country' series of romantic novels set in country Australia, sort of an earlier version of Rachel Treasure type novels if you are into those.

You need to set your reward line at the beginning of each session - you decide which direction you want your dog to move through the poles from, begin each session with a straight on 'easy' entry to set the reward line for the dog, then make sure that you keep the direction consistent for that entire session. Use good training mechanics to make sure your dog doesn't run back and forward through the poles in different directions. Even if you are standing still while the dog goes through the poles, you should be moving after that as you throw the reward, move forward and meet your dog and then tug/play together as you move back to your starting position so dog doesn't get a chance to 'backweave'. When you begin rotating first 2 poles, move to 2 and 8 o'clock, then work through all the entries on the arc as AD said before you rotate them again to 1 and 7 o'clock - then go back and work all the entries again before adding the 2nd set of poles. To get the type of entries you mentioned where you send your dog down to the entry from part way down the poles or at the opposite end, you need to increase the difficulty of the entries very slowly. It helps if you record keep- I had a diagram where I marked the position all the entries I worked for each session so I could target those where the succes rate was not as great and make sure I went slowly on those, but continued to work them. Record keeping is also good for keeping a note of your own body position, whether you stood still or ran with the dog - try to mix it up. Hope this helps. I got really good results with my young BC using this method but it is hard when you are doing it alone and have to rely on e-books and DVD - however excellent they might be. I had a couple of points where I bashed my head against the wall but luckily another instructor at the club where I teach and train was also doing it, so I had someone to compare notes with, so to speak. That really helps. There is also a lot of footage out there on you-tube of people applying the method incorrectly which doesn't help so be careful what you watch.

Definitely worth the money, and there are still a couple of places on the net where you can get it at less than RRP. I bought it to cheer myself up last October after having an accident and needing surgery on my arm, but then struggled to read it as it is so heavy I couldn't balance it and turn the pages with one hand. Even with 2 hands now it's still a heavy book. My only disappointment was his agility related chapter - his information and interviews were mainly from overseas handlers (although I totally understand his inclusion of Nigel Staines, King of ABC agility in England and a successful kelpie breeder as well, although he hasn't used Karrawarra bloodlines as his foundation stock) There are many working kelpies competing successfully in agility in Australia, including quite a few in his home state of Queensland, in fact the very first Australian dog to gain Agility Champion title was a kelpie from Queensland. I'm actually surprised he addressed an agility chapter to begin with, knowing his views on kelpies placed in non working homes, but seeing that he did, it would have been nice to see some local champions acknowledged. Still a great book though. KK I can relate to the engagement ring thing. I recently lost a diamond from mine and my husband jokes that at least replacing it would be a cheaper option than another dog - personally I'm leaning toward the other dog thing.

Shouldn't have any trouble with a kelpie. Step back so you are opposite and give a bit of space, then just start side stepping slowly. For a dog with good working ability the natural thing will be to start moving too to stay balanced with you - same way that they balance off stock. Worked with both of mine, and my BC too. Put some cling wrap over the phone book - if you haven't already- so the front paws don't slide. Once they get the hang of it, you can make the exercise more difficult by using a jump bump coming out at an angle from the corner of the phone book, they then have to pick up their feet more to step over it.

What about a Swedish Vallhund or would that be too much coat ?

This is one of the biggest furphies of all time - if kelpies needed to run 24/7 then every time you drove out to the country the paddocks would be full of running and frolicking kelpies. Yes they do need to run but they also need an off switch and some down time - a good kelpie will be able to turn off and relax and then be ready for work when you want him to. Plus if they are not in a working home then their exercise needs to be organised and supervised by you, they shouldn't just be turned free to self exercise in the paddock. Same goes for any breed, not just kelpies. I am on a property just a little bit bigger than yours and we have a fence around our house paddock which is probably around an acre and a half. If someone is home then my kelpies have access to this area to do what they want - if no one is home then they are confined to a dog run with high fences for their own safety. They are never allowed to roam the rest of the property unless with us and then usually on lead - although they both have good recalls, I wouldn't put one up against a rabbit or a kangaroo, LOL. We have tried to snake proof the house paddock as much as possible, but it isn't 100%, so on very hot days they are confined inside if we are out and only go into the house paddock under supervision. You would have a very difficult job training them to stay away from snakes as they are very attracted to movement - especially hard wired in some. I don't feel horrible about containing them at all as it is for their own safety, and they both seem to cope with this arrangement very well. Luckily my husband and I work different days but there are 2 days in the week when working overlaps and on those days they are often left in their run for 8 to 10 hours or so with no ill effect. They have plenty of things to occupy them during this time, raw meaty bones, stuffed kongs, chewies, etc. They are exercised under supervision, and not always at home as they like a change of scenery. They are also given a fair amount of mental stimulation which is very important for kelpies - things like trick training are great. You need to really commit to put the time in with a working dog but it is well worth it. If you provide enough exercise and training then your kelpie will cope with being contained at times and you will have peace of mind knowing your dog is safe.

Now adding SA to my list of states to visit to do some interstate trialling :D Not my favourite piece of equipment as you can tell, especially the ones with inappropriate fabric for the chutes, of which there are several.

I have the cloth tunnel from club at home at the moment to teach my youngest too. I am waiting for a windy day as if you position it just right to catch the wind, the chute will stay open enough for dog to see a bit of daylight as they enter rather than having to hold it open. That's how I like to teach it if at all possible. Usually after a few reps of this, they are OK with it the next time. Mind you, it appears so infrequently in trials in Vic. (not complaining!) it will be a good refresher for the kelpies too as they haven't been in one since I brought it home over the summer break this time last year. To date, my younger kelpie is in Excellent agility and Masters jumping and has never seen one in the trial ring.

I've been working through Karen Overall's 'Protocol for Relaxation' with one of mine - you can find it here. I don't understand entirely why this works as it appears very simple, I first read the exercises and thought 'that's it?' but so far it sure seems to be working. The other day I took it on the road and did a set outside a cafe with motorbikes roaring and people everywhere and although I still observed some stress signs, he had no trouble focussing on me - something I have struggled with at times when something stresses him out and definitely not conducive with agility trialling. (I think I may have been in the ring at Bendigo with this particular kelpie in Excellent Agility, just before you went in with Fox, if I have the right person) I printed off the rationale from the website and then reformatted the exercises onto a page for each day with a space for record keeping comments. Have a look at it and if you want a copy of what I did PM me your email addy and I will send it to you. An interesting thing I have noticed from doing these exercises that fits with your experience - and I have never noticed it before with this dog - he is more focussed working the exercises when I stand in front of him than when I stand at the side, so I am now working on only rewarding at my side. Even when we tug, I now present the toy at my side and then pull him to the front. I hope to meet Link at an agility trial at some stage.

Can't help with this AWBC registry as I have never heard of it until I read about it here, but if you are in Queensland a good place to start might be Queensland Working Sheepdog Asssociation which you can find here : If you wanted more information about particular lines you could most likely find someone there to help you. There are also links to the other state's equivalents on the site if the parents are from interstate lines or if I assumed the Qld thing wrong The WA site has some really good information on it and is worth a read at least.

Not to mention the fact that the predominant breed used to create the kelpie was in fact border collie Not according to Tony Parsons in his new kelpie book. Although kelpies definitely came from Scottish collies originally, Parsons stresses that these were not the same strain of collie as the Border Collie. It is widely accepted that the kelpie originated from Rutherford strain dogs imported from Scotland, which Parsons describes as ' short-coated, prick eared dogs, mostly black and tan in colour and therefore quite different from the black and white and black, tan and white Collies of the border counties' - ancestors of today's BC's. Guess that's not to say that there hasn't been some 'collie crossing' in the UK at some stage to develop today's lines but that would probably be the subject of a BC book, not a kelpie one - something that I'd be interested in if someone can recommend a good one since I now own a BC as well as kelpies. Thanks for explaining the registration Shortstep. Jules, your description of the BC that I fancied as looking too kelpie like made me laugh - are you insinuating that I am only attracted to it as it resembles a kelpie ? You're probably right. To the OP - hope you enjoy your new pup as much as I enjoy my girl !

What a stunning dog ! Sorry for the OP for going OT but in the UK there also appears to be different types of registered collies which I'm not quite sure how that works? You have your BC's of which many have ISDS registration which has been mentioned and to me look very similar to what I know as a working border collie here. There are also collies registered as 'working sheepdogs' - which I am not going to make a generalisation about how they look as I have only ever seen a handful. Only reason I know there is a difference in the way they are registered is that there are a couple of awesome working sheepdogs competing in agility in the UK that are not eligible to compete at worlds because of their registration. Anyone know if it only relates to pedigrees/ISDS rego. or are there actually subtle differences between the two, kinda like the differences with NZHD being known as a different breed (which to all intents and purposes look to me like smooth coated BC's.)

One of my kelpies was very much like this for a long time - given the choice when running agility he would still prefer to work away from me than in close. (Gamblers is his favourite event) When we first got into Masters he used to just about have a melt down when he needed to be tight and close on certain sections of a course, but over time he has become OK with it. Circle running really helped, with all the rewards coming from close to my leg. Foundation exercises like hand touches are good too as Superminty mentioned. I have seen some trainers use a clothes peg to build value for and than attach it to their pants to keep dog targeting in close. Also be aware when in close that you are moving absolutely straight, it only takes literally a couple of centimetres of moving into his space to send him heading out away from me again. Have the opposite problem with my BC - keep tripping over her

Hi Esky, Here is a quick one I found. You can probably get them from a lot of good pet shops (ie: the ones who don't sell animals just products). http://www.callicoma.com.au/accessories1.htm You can often find them in $2 shops. The Warehouse (or what used to be called that, think it's had a name change?) carries them regularly.

Which is the exact reason why I never go to offlead dog areas unless I am sure there won't be anyone else there or the area is big enough to avoid those standing around socialising (seems to be the majority) instead of actually involving themselves with exercising their dogs. Being distracted by a chat is an accident waiting to happen. Outdoor cafes are for chatting, dog parks are for exercising 100% duty of care.