kelpiechick

An excellent question ! When each state's proposals were posted publicly, it was only proposed by one state from memory - so I mistakenly thought there wouldn't have been much chance of it going through and didn't give it any further thought. Just shows you shouldn't assume I guess. It's certainly at the bottom of my 'favourites' list that's for sure.

Definitely my thoughts on it also in regard to shoulder jarring - it won't make any difference to dogs that go to the pivot point and push it down (not the performance I want) but to those who run to the end and ride elevator style I predict a lot more fly offs the end than with the higher height. I am part way through training with my youngest dog (got delayed after I had an accident and just so happens to be the one thing that I have pushed back without meaning to) but after starting with a lowered seesaw (which will be very close in height to the one coming in) I moved up to half height very quickly - she was racing to the end so fast and it was coming down very hard which made it really hard for her to stick her position. Once I went up a bit in height, this disappeared and the performance became a lot smoother. Looks like I will be rethinking her end performance when this comes in too. Not to mention how out of touch it makes us with the rest of the world which is not the way to move agility forward in this country IMO. Don't even get me started on jump heights in Australia, etc. LOL. The table changing earlier in Victoria seems to depend on who you talk to - have heard 'definitely yes' from one camp and 'definitely no' from another - so will depend who wins I guess. The table will also become optional at Excellent level, not just at Masters I believe. I also predict that the new chute will gradually disappear from competition - as it's optional there's not much incentive for clubs to spend the money on a new one. Will be interesting to see.

Glad to hear that you are enjoying your experience so far! (And doing very well if I've got the right person) BAD is about providing a strong foundation for you and your dog - there are certainly no requirements that you go trialling at any point, but we aim to give you the tools you need if you do decide to give it a go. We use very little equipment in Foundation class and teach most skills on the flat, so I'm sure we don't appeal to the casual participant who just wants to put their dog over equipment, but we do try and make that clear right from the beginning before people sign up and in our introductory session. The most frustrating thing is when someone signs up and they sit though introduction, then come to one lesson and never show up again as they decide it's 'not for them.' Frustrating because they take a place on the waiting list that we could have offered to someone else. (Luckily it's only happened twice, LOL) Our waiting list has now increased to 12 months - depending on whether we actually offer another new intake later this year or not, in which case it will most likely be around 18 months. We like to look after our existing members and keep class numbers small so we won't take on new participants if it means we are unable to do so. Once again, that same old culprit, shortage of instructors and current instructors spreading themselves very thin on the ground, to the detriment of working their own dogs. Supply certainly doesn't seem to match demand, even almost 3 years down the track from this original thread and with another new club in the mix - which we planned long and hard before starting out last year. I would be interested to know if other states have the same issues or has there just been an 'agility explosion' in Victoria ? Strange thing is I don't think the trialling numbers reflect this trend.

Insert 7 letter adjective before the word 'ridiculous' and you got it !

I'll think of you tomorrow morning from my nice warm bed cuddled up with a couple of kelpies - after getting up at ridiculous hours the past 2 Saturdays I am so looking forward to NOT tomorrow and very glad that I didn't enter - although I suspect the Border Collie might have other ideas if she knew there was a trial happening.

Made by Murray Tyler - Ness has already posted contact details on previous page. Have you tried in your own state though to save on delivery? There are a couple of people in NSW making equipment and someone on here could probably point you in the right direction. I would only use stick in the ground (electric fence posts, bamboo, etc.) as a last resort these days (although my first 3 dogs were all taught that way and still learned to weave.) Dogs tend to learn on these by pushing the poles out of the way with their heads and develop a very 'centre hugging' style, then when they go onto a rigid base they can't do this and it can create problems with some dogs. (not all though)

I have channel weaves on a metal base that I intend to sell (2 sets of 6 that connect together to make 12 and can be adjusted from straight line to around a 6 inch channel. Won't use them again since I tried 2x2 with the youngest dog. They were only ever used to teach one dog to weave and are still in very good condition, if you are interested PM me. Made by the same person currently making the 2x2's.

Think I may have seen some of your runs on Sunday with your BC ? (I had my 'baby' in Novice, tricolour BC) Apologies if I've got the wrong person, if not then I assume you are wanting to build up some more lateral distance with your dog to stop the curling in toward you all the time?? I would suggest going back to do some more foundation and training the skill with flatwork first away from the obstacles. You need to build up a balance of dog wanting to be in (Derrett) reinforcement zone plus also being rewarded away from you. Best book I would recommend is 'Agility Right from the Start' - written by 2 Derrett handlers so it is compatible with your handling system. The 2 exercises that will help you with developing this are called 'Aim for It' and 'Race to Reward'. Air Dogs have the best price I have seen for this book, but if you check out the author's website first (think it's www.agilityrightfromthestart.com - if not do a Google) then you can download a little bit of the book for free plus there are a couple of short movies showing exercises from the book. Terrific reference and helpful for training in general, not just those running Derrett system. Other exercises that help are 'Facing forward' - from Susan Garrett's One Jump and also Jump Grids where your dog can target a toy on the ground while allowing you to build up some lateral distance without the distraction of handler movement. You can then proof your own movement in bit by bit - I like to use Rachel Sander's model for this - 'walk, jog, run' Sorry, I can't comment on how useful the 'Go the Distance' would be as I haven't used it. Hope this helps you.

;) And what will happen to the disgusting excuse for a human being - slap over the wrist and a fine ?

Peak Performance (M.Christine Zink) is also good.

Marine carpet is brilliant - we have got it in the undercover part of our smaller dogrun and all it needs is a rubber brooming every now and then, with the added bonus of being able to hose down if necessary. Only problem is laying it so it is tight enough. Ours went down on a chipboard 'floor' that OH built in first so we just glued over that. You might be able to glue on pavers ??? We also have artificial turf in our open shed and that is good too. The cheapest turf from Bunnings is probably on par costwise with the marine carpet but you need to put the turf down on a sand base first. Have woodchips around the house in the garden and they are really messy and end up all over the place. Same with scoria - never doing that again !

So very true We all watch Susan Salo changing the appearance of jumps to totally 'change the picture' for the dog to encourage problem solving but for most of our dogs the only time they get a 'changed picture' of the weave poles is actually in a trial. Don't know what it's like in other states but in Victoria you can get : fixed base, stick in the ground, fat poles, skinny poles, rigid poles, wobbly poles, striped poles, plain poles, different colour poles, poles with flags on top ..... and probably a few more variations that I haven't thought of. And that's just equipment 'distractions' without any handling ones being thrown in as well. We tend to think 'weaves are weaves' without giving much consideration to how they might appear totally different to our dogs. And I also think that this sometimes shows up more in the beginning with younger dogs that have been taught 2x2's as the method encourages such lovely independent entries right from the start, so the dogs are not being 'babysat' (is that a word?) into the weaves as much as they are when taught other methods, then we wonder what's gone wrong when they appear to not even recognise the poles at first. Another problem that I have seen with some teaching the method is that they stick to the easier entries in order to move on quicker and never really work much on the more difficult 'slice of the pie' where the dog really has to think to figure out how to enter and collect. Big fan of the method though and with the results I have gotten from my young BC compared to my kelpies that were taught with other methods - as I rush off to find my old stick in the ground poles on the way to Bunnings to buy some tape and more PVC to make a striped set, LOL.

I believe there is a club at Melton but I don't know anything about it. BB already mentioned Northern, I was a member there for a few years and had mostly positive experiences. Plus you also have Keilor Obedience Dog Club - they use positive methods and have a good reputation. Bacchus Marsh would probably not be a stretch for you either, but again I don't know much about how they train. Ditto for Werribee. So you have a lot of options. I would suggest going along to a few clubs and have a look before you decide, both private and public. Ask questions about training methods, equipment, etc. and pick one that sits right with how you want to train. Plus you will need to factor in training day that suits (usually Saturday or Sunday) and how much you are prepared to spend/can afford. There is a tendency to put down the public clubs because the instructors are volunteers, but I have trained at both and when I had issues years ago with my ACD I got way more helpful assistance from a couple of instructors at the public club than I did at the private. You will most likely get particular instructors that do a great job at both - as well as those that do, well, not so great a job, at both.

Not commenting on 'click ends behaviour' training as that's a whole other thread in itself but from an agility training point of view it's not how I use the clicker. So I can understand the look from the instructor. But I understand you've trained what you've trained and don't want to change it. Biggest problem I can see is that you will now need to condition another release cue for your contacts which might become confusing for your dog. You need a verbal cue to release dog off contact as obviously you can't use clicker in ring. I would be trying to phase the clicker out now and using a verbal bridge instead so you can start using a verbal release as well - the last thing you want is a dog that won't come off the contact until he hears a click. Are you on actual contact equipment? Personally I teach the 'stay in position and release' on a travel board before I ever put it on equipment. That way I can fade any targets I might be using before the dog runs over equipment so it is not becoming a lure.

Interesting food for thought. This is my younger kelpie who is not as calm as my older one by any means - at home he just wants to run and is always 'rearing to go' (doesn't always transfer to agility though ) and it just seems to me as if he is constantly hyped up with twitching muscles to match. Seems to be prone to muscle soreness and soft tissue type injuries way more than the other dogs, not to mention the amount of broken claws he gets. Would be interesting to see if there is actually any correlation between temperament and injuries. (sorry OP for going OT)

Control Unleashed is a terrific program that I think gets discounted by a lot of people because it has the stigma of being something that wild out of control dogs or stressed shut down dogs do - and there's a ton of stuff that is really good for all sorts of dogs in there. I am happy to share everything that I have done/am doing with Cruz with you, since you also have first hand experience of Cruz. (If only he would stop getting injured, which I also believe is part of the 'can't relax' thing.) PM me if you want as it's way too much to post here.

This is a really cool website for generating your own double box sequences if you haven't seen it already.

4 jumps in a single box, double box work is essentially 2 single boxes joined together and uses 7 jumps. The DVD with all the exercises is the 2nd GD DVD, 'Great Dog Shame about the Handler' - although for those following his system there are a few exercises on here that are now outdated with the way he runs, especially the rear cross exercises. I have all the DVD's mentioned I think (not that I'm an agility junkie or anything ) and if you want to save some money you could just pick up a copy of the book 'Agility Right from the Start' (Bertilsson and Johnson Vegh) Also based on the Derrett system and covers absolutely everything that all the foundation videos cover plus then goes on to obstacle training, then sequencing, etc. Awesome book and I would rate it as equally as good as everything else I own. Air Dogs had a good price on it a while back. You can also have a look at the author's website (google it) and download a sample for free - plus there are a few video clips that go with the book that demonstrate the exercises being taught. In fact for foundation training you could get the book and maybe Crate Games and you'd have a good foundation well and truly covered.

I like the idea of using 'life rewards' to simulate the level of excitement at a trial. You want an independent table performance just like you want independent contact performance and don't want to rely on using accel and decel as that means you are going to have to be in the picture for every table if you know what I mean. Definitely think you need a position on the table to consolidate the concept of stopping. Sounds like dog just doesn't understand job 100% (eg: more proofing required) and once she does I don't think you will have a problem with it. If you have a list of proofing to work through for both weaves and contacts (I use the one from 2x2 weaves ebook for pretty much everything) then apply the same list to your table performance, Kavik has already listed some good ideas. Some more ideas : Build value for the table first, just like you build value for your end contact performance, so a ton of rewards on the table in position and maybe a jackpot for an actual stop at first. For a food motivated dog, link the table stop with dinner time. Have food bowl beyond table, either send or recall dog to table then release for dinner - this now becomes an 'it's your choice' moment as well, but you might need a helper to lift up bowl if dog doesn't stop on table. It should at least raise the level of arousal. If you use crate games, build the driving in and sudden stopping with the actual crate first, (outside) then transfer it to the table. If dog is consistently jumping onto table in extension rather than collection you could use a stride regulator to encourage an extra stride before the table.

In that case I would definitely recommend that she goes with a registered breeder from the list on the link. I know in the UK there has been a sudden influx of people breeding them after they have done well in agility and have heard that there are a lot of very 'suss' dogs being passed off as purebred kelpies. Because they are rare as pets, most people don't know the difference. Quite possible it is the same in Canada too? I would imagine the WKC would suggest Ledgerock or Windrush - two of the more established studs - but a number of Canadian lines are quite possibly based on their bloodlines too.

They are not all that rare in Canada - a few years back there were 3 kelpies on the World agility team representing Canada. Does it have to actually be a Canadian breeder or would mainland USA be an option - would give your friend more choice. Also what does she want to do with the dog? If looking for a kelpie for dogsports I would recommend Quickheels (USA). You also have Ledgerock in the USA, based mainly on Capree lines and affiliated with the WKC. There is a Canadian breeder named Terri Coutts who breeds some nice kelpies but can't remember the name of her stud offhand. There is a link to the North American kelpie registry here -also includes a number of Canadian breeders.

I'm not good with inches but the cutoff between 500 and 600 for ANKC is 545mm inclusive for 500. Having consulted my trusty tape measure it looks as if that puts it around 21 and a half inches so you would possibly be borderline between the 2 heights and would need to get an accurate measure to find out. If the 22 inches is accurate then you will be jumping 600. There are BC's jumping 400, 500 and 600. There are kelpies jumping 500 and 600 and a lot of the smaller kelpie cross type dogs also jump 400.

What are you doing wasting time on DOL ? You should be packing to go trialling. Yep, I have 2 Noonbarra kelpies that I trial in agility. They are both awesome dogs in different ways. The older one throws very strongly to Milburn lines on one side and also has Phils Creek Sam in his bloodline. The younger one's breeding is based more on Capree bloodlines. Also like the Scoriochre lines from what I have seen, in fact when I was researching for mine, Scoriochre was pretty much the only Victorian line I considered but went with Noonbarra instead and have been very happy with my decision. That Binnaburra pup is adorable. When I looked for another dog not too long ago, decided that I should expand my horizons and not get 3 Noonbarra kelpies in row - even though I would have been happy to- and I actually looked at Binnaburra and Marionvale bloodlines and liked what I saw..... but ended up with a working BC from WA instead in a 'chain of events' that I wasn't really planning ! Sometimes the right dog just finds you and I love the contrast with training kelpies as it really makes me think about training things in different ways. BTW I think kelpie/lab mixes are pretty cool too - especially now that I know Darcy.

Oops wrong thread so deleted. Blonde attack, LOL.

Possibly one of the differences with demographics is that I am talking 'agility only' training whereas I believe you offer other types of training as well? (stand corrected if I've got mixed up on that) I don't believe you need offlead reliablility to commence foundation agility classes, but both clubs where I teach have 'ready to work offlead' as part of the promotion criteria for the next class up - where the lowered equipment/weave training begins. As agility is pretty exciting for most dogs, the atmosphere at training can be highly charged so I think a pretty good level of offlead control is necessary - the offlead control you have at home or out on a quiet walk is likely to deteriorate in that environment if it is not pretty solid first. 'Ready to work offlead' doesn't necessarily mean that we expect the dogs to be 100% reliable as that would be unrealistic. However we don't promote any dog that doesn't have a reasonable level of focus on their handler or that doesn't have a reasonably reliable recall. We also ask handlers to have a 'plan' for what they will do if their dog does run off as this seems to take some of the stress out of it and makes people relax more. We also work a lot in foundation class on building a strong reinforcement zone so that the dogs are not as inclined to do a runner. One club is indoors so the dogs are pretty well contained. I still try to keep an eye on any potential runaways in foundation though. Had one last night in first session, so next week when we do tunnel and recalls, I will move everyone else outside the arena (fenced) and only have one dog at a time off lead in there. It is a luxury to be able to do this in this environment though. The other club is outdoors, not fenced and there is the occasional runner, if we get a dog in the foundation class that shows a tendency to do this, we use orange netting on the side of one of the rings to block visibility of the dogs running a course in the next ring. (Just thinking haven't had to put this up for ages, touchwood ) It's not totally foolproof though. If I was instructing an offlead class and a dog was continually running off (not talking about a once off) then I would probably ask handler to put their dog back on lead and watch the rest of the class for that evening or to work on some focus type exercises with dog with a lot of reinforcement, then try again if there was no danger in doing so- eg: if there was a reactive dog in class they wouldn't get a chance to reoffend. Sometimes when dogs are running off it is a level of reinforcement issue (eg: dog being expected to complete course before being rewarded) and once the dog experiences more success and a higher reinforcement level then the problem disappears. In every case we would try and pinpoint why dog is running off first before deciding how to deal with it. Edited to add : I totally understand your concern about dogs running off, years ago when I first started out with my ACD, he got a fright one night when someone let off fireworks in the distance, and did a run right across the main road beside the agility training area - with me racing along behind bawling my eyes out. (It's a wonder I went back when I think about this now- just as well the seeds of an addiction had already taken root) Can you use some sort of temporary fencing, even star pickets and orange netting or would that be non-practical. Pain to put up but if you had students to help you out maybe. In regard to grid training, we start in foundation class but use jump bumps, beginning with the set point exercise, then building up to a 4 bump grid. Distances and heights of bars for each dog size are all on Salo's DVD's.