Jeff Jones

JoeK. I am finding it hard to follow your posts. Must imprinting be done on working litters? well that is up to the breeder. But if they want to increase there chances of breeding and raising suitable prospects for service work then they should be completing early imprinting and socialization. You can refer to it however you like, but you are up against the likes of Steven Lindsay and his bio sensor program. It has nothing to do with scraping genetically unsound dogs through the training and selection process for service work.

Nobody stated a dog without early imprinting would not make it in to a suitable candidate. by completing early imprinting and socialisation you are increasing your chances of the pup developing in to a suitable candidate for service dog training. It also gives the breeder a chance to assess the litters development and response to stress. Studies have proven litters exposed to imprinting and socialisation in the first 8 weeks are healthier and have a greater resistance to stress than litters which have not received any early imprinting and socialisation. As you are "interested" in this area I suggest you do some research to further your knowledge.

A good idea in principle Jed but I dread the thought of a Media provided "Expert". It's a bit of a worry - especially in light of the "experts" they usually have .... but one could only hope that they would get someone who actually DID know! It would really help, I think A friend of mine and an excellent dog trainer was booked in to appear on a news segment yesterday morning to discuss dog attacks and bsl. They ended up canceling the segment at the last minute. This person is an expert on dog behaviour and training with over 10 years experience in training working dogs. I hope they do end up completing the segment.

they are being heavily socialised and worked with atm, zero chance they are leaving me without being desexed, sorry! as mentioned before, one is already going to a bomb trainer and IMO should do well, they have already been assessed.... contacted the company today and got a flat out no for reviewing the pedigree again, cant blame them considering the abuse I hurled at them... thanks for all the site links guys! No worries. May I ask who the EDD trainer is? is the dog going to be supplied to a private company or government department? I am not allowed to purchase desexed dogs for the department I am selecting dogs for, good luck finding homes for the rest. I will ask around at a training night tomorrow but I am not sure any other departments will be interested as the pedigree is not known and they will be desexed. ETA: The security company should not be breeding dogs and I doubt would have the expertise involved for properly training dogs for this role, especially Belgian Malinois. I would be interested to know what the name of the company is? It is rare these days but I sometimes complete training for Security Company's and dog handlers and I would hate to be associated with these people.

I love how rewarding liberally equates to... well, I'm not sure what you're claiming, there. A dog that is not treated like a dog, maybe? Although that doesn't make sense because all animals respond to rewards, including dogs. A dog that doesn't respond favourably to confrontational training methods? I am not claiming anything - only that practical experience with all types of behaviour (irrespective of breed) will always win out over theory. No it won't, just ask any academic.

I would also be interested in knowing the pedigree if you are able to find it out? If you have any left I might be able to arrange for an assessment for either detection or protection roles but they would not be able to be desexed upon sale. I am not to sure how suitable these pups will be as well as it does not look like this company would have put in any effort to early imprinting and socialisation.

Not really, I do not have any statistics per state but you will find the majority of handlers are males.

As with any specialist policing unit it is fairly hard to get in to. It can be a realistic goal but it is a long term goal and you need to work with this in mind. The best way is to volunteer at training and take part in associated activities within the dog unit eg: puppy raising programs. You generally need 3 years general duties experience before applying for specialist units. The dogs can live with another dog in the household. The handlers are given the option of keeping the dog, second preference goes to other handlers / members in the police force who are willing to own the dog. A couple of states hire people without police dog handling experience to work as trainers. These trainers normally have experience in Schutzhund or related dog sports though.

HOW DO YOU GET INTO THIS KIND OF JOB! would love to do a job i enjoy and get to handle train dogs, i have searched the net, sent emails and they have just sent me useless material about the job role ! You generally need experience in working for those departments Nekhbet listed and then apply to become a member of there respective dog units.

He is a great looking Mal and one I would be happy to own.

Nice Mali. Does the area where this video was taken look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflA2T24n5I Familiar, your clip is out the front of the kennels, my clip is out the front of the house, it is totally different now. nothing like it used to be, you should come visit:)) Yeah the video is fairly old. Thanks for the offer, I will take you up on it one day as I would like to see how much they have changed.

Nice Mali. Does the area where this video was taken look familiar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflA2T24n5I

I agree with Nekhbet. As I said in the other thread, you would certainly know by your dogs behaviour if it was cross with any of the Dutch Shepherds that are in Australia. Going by the look of you're dog and having seen and worked with the breed in several countries I highly doubt the dog you have has any Dutch Shepherd in it.

Yes, you are right. I will make a phone call tonight and have the Crimes Act 1900 deleted as according to some nut job on a dog forum police officers hold no authority and are deemed normal citizens. I am off to work now, try not to overdose overnight on what ever substance you are taking that fills your mind with these delusional thoughts.

I have described the temperament of the Dutch Shepherd before on forums only to have people interpret the description posted and say "oh, your Dutch Shepherd sounds exactly the same as my (insert some random breed of dogs name here). The Dutch Shepherds I have either handled or owned have been confident and out going. They are a breed of dog that requires regular physical and mental activity otherwise they can become destructive or develop behavioural problems like tail chasing / biting, I know Dutch Shepherds that have bitten off parts of there tail due to being left in a backyard or kennel for to long. They are an extremely intelligent and highly trainable breed of dog given the right handler and training regime. They are bred for high levels of prey and fight drive as well as having social dominance which makes them a poor breed of choice for inexperienced dog owners who are not willing to work them in any of the dog sports or personal protection areas. The Dutch Shepherd I have at the moment has caused serious injury to handlers within departments who were not experienced enough with the breed and handling truly dominant dogs.

How about you start displaying some common sense in your posts? Your lack of ability to see reason and poor moral judgement is more of a concern than anything I have read in this thread regarding the police officers involved in the incident. One would hope someone in your position would be able to display these qualities in your posts instead of the drivel in which you regularly post. It concerns me enough that you are a member of the community with the level of sensationalism and lack of education in your posts, the fact that you are a teacher is extremely concerning and one has to wonder about your ability to be an appropriate role model for the children under your care.

I highly doubt your dog has any Dutch Shepherd in it, it looks like a bitsa to me. There are only working line Dutch Shepherds in Australia and the temperament you describe is very far away from the actual temperament of these dogs.

Try looking in to tug toys made from french linen, jute or fire hose material.

Monelite I am not sure if you can remember or not but what was the name of that red bitch that was trialing in Schutzhund around 4 years ago? it started with a M from memory, I think she got up to SCHII in Victoria? Nevermind it came back to me her name was Mali.

Neither can I, but where are these dobes going? In your opening post you listed 12 working line breeders, the average litter size for dobes is 8 pups? so say these breeders have one litter every 2 years(which is false the actual number would be higher) that is still 96 working line pups, where are these pups going? it certainly isn't to competitive Schutzhund handlers or Security Dog Handlers in NSW. The last time I seen a large number of working dobes in NSW was around 2002 when I was invited out to a kennels (which is now owned by a doler) for a training weekend, from memory there were 10 Dobermanns. The only dobe on the day that impressed me was a red bitch which I ended up owning (I later re homed the dog to someone who required a personal protection dog).

I did not mean for that to be the sole indicator of a good working/tough Dobermann. ;) but it was something I noticed when pressure was applied the Dobermann of old would take the fight to the decoy by wrapping there legs around the decoy fighting through the bite. Seemed to be a trait that I have not seen in Dobermanns I have tested with pressure applied in quite sometime.

I can’t say for certain what has lead to the demise of the Dobermann as a suitable working dog but in Australia alone there have been some serious contributing factors. The dobe is no longer used by Corrections, Police or the RAAF/Military as a service dog. The banning of docking tails and cropping ears. The rise in popularity of the Belgian Malinois and Dutch Shepherd have all been factors working against the Dobermann. I remember Dobermanns as being a very serious working dog with high levels of fight drive and being truly dominant, with the passing of Dobermanns in being used for law enforcement Dobermanns were then primarily bred for and trained in Schutzhund. Dobermanns were then being bred to conform to Schutzhund standards which mean breeding dogs with higher levels of prey drive and overall less fight drive for ease of trainability. I remember when agitating the Dobermann of old they would actively seek to engage the decoy and once on the bite they would try to fight through the decoy and wrap their legs around you. You can briefly see this being done in the video below. This is a Dobermann trait in which any experienced decoy of dobes will be able to confirm and tell you about. This Dobe has been bred and trained for Schutzhund so would have been discouraged from wrapping its legs around the decoy but still attempts to do this when on the bite. The majority of Dobermanns that I have tested recently are not able to handle being worked in new environments and they move towards avoidance when pressure is applied. This has made them unsuitable for work as personal protection dogs. Having said that I have tested a couple of Dobes bred by Von Forell which have done well. Overseas as well. They are not considered a breed of choice for Schutzhund competitors or personal protection dog handlers,

I would be completing a temperament evaluation on the dog as I do on any dog before conducting any form of protection training or assessment to test the dogs suitability for this style of work. I then like to complete a stake out test on the dog, I will trigger different drives in the dog and assess the dogs ability to switch between drives and assess its recovery time to different levels of stimulation. This sounds fairly easy but it does not take much to ruin a dog, I recommend you have K9 Pro assess the dog for its working potential. A lot of people have a friend or inexperienced trainer agitate the dog without knowing which drive the dog is working in. They falsely believe because the dog is displaying a aggressive response it has the right temperament for protection work. ETA: Moosmum how old is the dog in question, I am assuming it is an older dog and not a puppy?

Thanks for the input Jeff, I was an ADSC member in 2010 and actively trained my young Dobe before she was tragically taken by unexpected onset of HGE. But i will ask around at EDSC also. Speak with Chris at EDSC he used to breed working line dobes.

I have seen and worked dobes from Von Forell that have been fairly good. I would have a look around and speak to the handlers at Adelaide Sport Dog Club and Euro Dog Sport Club.