Title Changed, Molly The Labrador's Thread.

[Miranda]

I thought I should mention that the Triangle Of Temptation can seem very complicated when you first read about it and it actually took me a couple of weeks before I really knew what I was doing and was able to implement the program properly. My dogs have been on the program for nearly a year now and I do it every night without thinking about it. I can now leave my dogs indefinitely (although it's usually anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes) and not one of them will touch their food until I say 'okay'. I have also brought in distractions and they still don't break their stays. It has made an amazing difference to their behaviour and believe me if you persevere with it you will find it very helpful. K9 is always happy to advise you if you have any problems.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Miranda

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Good advice has been given here. I'm not sure how you decided on a Labrador - they are a lively, boisterous breed of dog and it sounds like fairly typical puppy behaviour at this stage.

Most people are best off with a dog of 4 years or older, simply because they don't want or like puppy behaviour. It is very time consuming as well and people are very busy these days.

I really hope you will take the time to work this through, best to get help early on as other posters have suggested.

[blacklabrador]

Good advice has been given here. I'm not sure how you decided on a Labrador - they are a lively, boisterous breed of dog and it sounds like fairly typical puppy behaviour at this stage.

No a puppy that is biting is not "typical" nor is it acceptable. It can be considered normal behaviour but it also must be recognised that it is a behaviour that must NOT continue and has to be managed by someone who knows how to stop it turning into something more serious.

Labs are very lively pups and they grow very quickly into big lively dogs with big teeth and strong jaws. Biting and dominant behaviour MUST be dealt with now while the pup is young.

[4leggedvariety]

I tend to agree with blacklabrador. Boisterious, excitedness in puppy yes, but biting, growling at people over food, I don't think is acceptable puppy behaviour and I doubt if it is normal 'puppy behaviour' if it is living with a pack of dogs.

I have observed my own pack of dogs, usually between 3 to 5 dogs, and different combinations of dogs with different breeds, different sizes. They only seem to growl at other dogs they see as lower ranking than themselves. If a higher ranking dog comes close, they either scoff it down as quickly as possible or they pick up the food and runs away with it if it is a bone.

Does anybody else have similar of completely different situations? My dogs have never growled at people when they approach their food and I have not done any of the "hand in bowl & give more yummy food exercise".

[littlelabrador]

She doesn't growl at me when i approach her when eating, she growls when i pat her while eating. If i just talk and say her name, she wags her tail while eating. If i touch, she will tolerate one or two pats, then will growl, and continue eating at the same time, her head doesnt leave the bowl.

This puppy has had a food intolerance, has been very hungry and did not gain weight properly in the first 2 weeks we had her - we've only had her 3.5 weeks now. She is better ,seems less hungry, on the prescription food from the vet, and gained 1.2kg in the first week on that food.

Today is the first day, ive been home all day with her while my daughter is at preschool, and she's been very mellow, quiet, and slept a lot of the day, no problems (except for the growl at lunchtime).

How/why did we choose a lab ? Well, to be honest, because my husband did not want a small dog. He prefers big dogs. I actually wanted something small, like a beagle. Of all the large breeds, we chose a lab because thats what i grew up with and felt we'd be comfortable with. My child has mild autism, and i had also done some research into autistic kids and dogs, and the labs/retrievers seemed to do well with them, being the 'helping' dog that they are (ie deaf and blind guide dogs,etc).

I rang the central coast dog obedience club, they said to turn our back on her, with the bad behaviour, and that she is too young for obedience classes, but can start in the next group in february.

I looked at the k9 site (thanks), but we cant afford hundreds of dollars upfront, right now, unfortunately. I will speak to the vet nurse at puppy preschool this weekend and see what she recommends too. I might try and video the behaviour tonight, to show her.

I think i have said, that she doesnt bite at me, its just my husband, and sometimes if my daughter is wearing a dress, she tries to nip at the dress, etc. If she has something she shouldn't, ie, a stone, a leaf, paper, etc, in her mouth, i can quite easily open her mouth and take it out with no problem.

[4leggedvariety]

why do you think she doesn't bite at you but your husband or your daughter?

there must be something different between how the dog sees you & how it sees your hubby & daughter.

[Tofuloaf]

Is it even possible ??

We have an 11wk old yellow lab puppy, Molly, who i have written about when we first got her. We've been so busy with her i havent had time to get back to this site !

Molly has had a lot of problems with loose bowel motions, and frequency, up to ten times a day. After trial and error, antibiotics etc, the vet has put her on a prescription dry food last week and finally it has helped, shes only going 2 or 3 times a day now and its much firmer.

But, we are having a lot of problems with jumping, biting, barking etc, mostly with my husband at night. She is aggressive about her food. We are going to puppy preschool, and the lady there has said to pat her while she's eating and to put our hands in the food etc, well we certainly cant get our hands in the food, she tries to bite us, but if patted once or twice she will tolerate the pat, any more she startes growling. We arent sure if this is just because the first few weeks she wasn't absorbing enough and has just been really hungry. The second week we had her she didnt gain much weight, so obviously wasnt getting enough nutrition. Weight gain has picked up with the new food (1.2kg last week).

When hubby gets home in the evening, he pays attention to her, has a little ball play with her, and then we eat dinner. She jumps up while we are eating, barks etc. Dont know if she just wants more attention or what. We've tried giving her time out when she does this, in the laundry and she will calm down, but it takes a few time outs !

After dinner, and daughter is in bed, we usually relax in front of the tv. This is when Molly goes 'psycho' as my husband calls it. He will be sitting on the lounge, and she will run around in circles, very hyper, then jump up at him, bark at him, try to bite him wherever she can get hold, feet, legs etc. We have been using a 'sit' command with a downward hand signal, and when he puts his hand out to say and do that command she goes nuts barking at him. Last night she nipped a bit too hard and drew blood. I don't have anywhere near as much of a problem during the day. She will obey the sit command for me.

She does seem like an active puppy, not a quiet little thing, but we have a 5yr old and if she is going to be a biting, aggressive dog, we will not be able to keep her, and that would break all our hearts as we love her already ! She is purebred, from a breeder, not a shop, etc.

Have to go and organise myself, will come back later this morning and check any responses, any advice or help is greatly appreciated.

I'm another person who thinks that just sounds like typical puppy behaviour. Something to note is that young puppies have yet to learn that if they're tired, sleeping will make them feel better. Until they learn that, they will run around getting more tired, more cranky, and consequently more 'psycho' until they pretty much pass out from exhaustion. If you see your pup being 'psycho' or doing zoomies around the house, she might just be tired. Try crating her when she does that. I wouldn't be surprised if she was asleep within a few minutes.

As for the food aggression, I certainly wouldn't stick my hand in her food. At first, stay by her when she feeds and put some extra tasty treats in her bowl as she eats, so that she associates your presence while feeding as being a positive thing. After a couple of days of that, take her bowl away when she's about half finished, then give it back to her after making her sit. Eventually she'll learn that it's not a big deal to have food taken away from her, because she's going to get it back if she behaves.

Obviously your mileage will vary depending on the individual dog's personality, but using the above method I now have a staffy who will simply stand there looking dejected when a pomeranian shoulders him out of the way and starts eating his treats at the local dog park.

[littlelabrador]

I think she nips at my daughter because shes always moving, as kids are, running, or jumping, have clothes that are more flowing, like dresses. Whenever my daughter runs around outside, she chases her.

As for my husband, i am hoping it is because he isn't the one doing any training with her. He takes her outside for a wee and feeds her when he gets up in the morning. He is gone from 6.45am to 7.15pm, so i am the one with her all the time. I am assuming its a similar thing to the discipline with my child, where he complains that she will listen to me, but not to him, but he rarely disciplines her as he just doesnt see her much during the week.

I've wondered, with Molly, if its just that he gets home, has a little play with her, then we sit down for dinner, and she just wants to continue playing, as she tries to jump up on him while we eat, etc, but not on me. If she comes to me, i say 'no, sit', and she does ! Then runs around to him and jumps on him. Then we usually end up giving her a time out in the laundry, till she's quiet, then let her out. If she continues to jump, she goes back in the laundry till she's quiet again. Its usually only a couple minutes, and by the 3rd time she will usually just sigh and go and sit on her bed !

After dinner, when we go to sit and watch tv is when the increased antics start. I do think, well i am really hoping, a lot of it is she wants his attention, wants to play etc. She's been very relaxed today, so im almost expecting a rowdy evening. By the way, he is not an aggressive man in the least, and doesn't look aggressive, he's very mild mannered, as such, he's not encouraging any aggression at all.

Out of curiosity, what time would you all put an 11wk old puppy to bed ??? Maybe we should be putting her to bed instead of letting her stay up with us ?

[patch]

It does sound (to my VERY inexpert ears) that she doesn't see him as someone she needs to listen to and yes, perhaps it is because he doesn't train her. When she jumps up on him and she's put in time out, who does that? You or him? If you are always the one who takes her out or who takes over when she's naughty, it's reinforcing that you are the only real boss. Again, I am NOT a behaviourist/trainer so please take my ramblings as just those of another labrador owner!

I'd suggest it's something you talk to a trainer about as perhaps there is something else your husband could do. Does he ever feed her?

It sounds like you have a good relationship with her yourself and I really hope you can get the other members of your family to the same stage. Maybe you could suggest that your husband behaves towards Molly in the same way that you do?

She's very cute by the way, even for a non-black... (sorry, running joke on here that some of us think know that black is best! )

I'm another who's a fan of a crate - I have them permanently set up in my lounge room, although the dogs do sleep on their bed in my room. They don't fit in my car either - I use harnesses in the car.

Keep looking for a trainer - there may be others around who you could afford?

[labnut]

Hi! This is my first post to any forum so please be gentle.

I have a 18wk old female black lab, Indi. She is my second black lab and fourth dog. The first was a Jack Russel x m. (d at 15). The second was a Mini Foxie f. (d. at 16, Sept 07) The third, the love of my life, died of cancer July 07 13y 11m.

After one lab I will never own another breed by choice. Definitely not a terrier(they don’t suit my personality). Labs are strong, boistrous, energetic with the capacity to be amazingly gentle and loving with guidance and training. They are also very intelligent and love to learn, however they can be stubborn and think they know a better way to do ‘it’.

Obedience training is a must. Dog training clubs are not really expensive and worth every cent to have a dog that knows what you want when you ask it to do something.

My old girl did obedience trials, retrieving trials, flyball, scent relay, demonstrations, and some agility. Home training is just as valuable, though you must be consistant and not accept less than what you ask for and you must be the leader. Any group is only as good as its leader.

Growling around food is high up on the list of no nos. My dogs only did it once! I must have appeared so fierce they decided it wasn’t worth the effort to do it again.

I removed all meat and meat by products, except chicken wings occasionally, from my old labs diet after 2yrs of smelly loose deposits, hot spots and flakey skin. She lived on canned pilchards (cat food- real fish not the pretend fish) and Lucky Dog Bones. Beautiful teeth, coat, no dog smell or bad breath and no weight problems.

My baby is also quieter during the day with just me but when my daughter and husband come home she goes nuts on and off no matter how calm every one tries to be. Too much energy or I must be boring. 1 ½ hrs obedience training Wed is the only thing that wears her out. I would love some of her energy! Bed time is when the last person goes to bed.

Littlelabrador your baby is beautiful

[littlelabrador]

lol re the black lab comments ! I actually wanted a black one, not a yellow, but, we have cream carpet, as does my father, who spends forever vacuuming because of all the black hairs. I'm not biased because we have a yellow lab, i think the blacks are definitely more beautiful, something about the shiny coat. I also love the chocolate's but again, the dark hair would have driven me nuts. So yellow we have, and yellow we love now. Not quite sure how her coat will end up, it was very light at first, but the more mature hair is coming in on her back, and it's getting a darker strip along the top of her back, with some spots on top of her head that look like someone has dropped paint on her !

Well, like i said, we had a quiet day. When i brought my daughter home from preschool, Molly didnt seem that interested in her, and was well behaved until about an hour later. She came to life as such, outside, racing around after her, which is ok, but then she started chasing and biting at her clothes, and started jumping up on her. Twice she got put in a time out in the laundry, it didnt seem to do a lot of good. I've put my daughter to bed now, and i had about a 15 minute ball play outside with Molly. She seems totally stuffed now, and is lying quietly. I'm sure she'll be at it again when hubby gets home.

Patch, no i think she doesn't listen to him because he doesn't discipline her. He tries and she ignores him and barks at him, so then i will tell her off, sometimes she will then calm down, sometimes not, if not, he then takes her to the laundry for time out.

It can be hard to know if this is her personality, or puppy behaviour. We only met the mother, who seemed very sweet, but then, you only see them for a couple hours, not a long time to judge temperament. Molly's father is a Driftway dog, thats all i know about him. We dont yet have the pedigree papers. There were 10 pups in her litter, and it was the mother's first litter. Does any of that affect the temperament ??

I am looking forward to doing the obedience training. I'm a tad worried that waiting till february is too long, as she will be around 24 weeks by then, is that too late ?? They said they dont start up again until then, she's too young for the current group.

Re the growling, its only with her bowl, when i pat her. She doesnt growl when im making her food. She does bark sometime when we are eating and she is not. I am thinking we should put her outside when we eat ?? Its all very hard to know, with so many different opinions.

[Poodle wrangler]

About where/ how to feed your dog---> do Triangle of Temptation (TOT): http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101 for every meal.

It's FREE. It takes only an extra 5 minutes to do and teaches sit, stay, okay- and most importantly- for the dog to look to you above food. YOU are the source of good things. Go for it.

I found it helpful to print it out, read through several times and do a "dummy run" before I even got near the pup, but I'm a bit slow .

You don't have to even understand the theory- but do need to do it EXACTLY as described for best results.

Myska has even done a video, minus the leash/ rope.

About the puppy school: Many vet nurses are excellent and DO have some knowledge and/or qualifications in dog training, but many likewise DON'T!

At some vets, the puppy preschool is an extension of the vet nurses jobs. Good money for the surgery, given the low wages of vet nurses .

If a behaviourist isn't an option at present, you have some ideas here to sort through.

Also have a suggestion for a book & DVD.

Good luck. I'm sure pup will come right with the right guidance.

She's still only a "baby" and needs the same consistency and routine, just not as much "spoiling"

Edited November 1, 2007 by Poodle wrangler

[Jed]

Why would telling the breeders be of any use ?? They know she has been unwell, but weren't really able to help there, all of the other pups from the litter have not had the gut problems Molly has had.

Some breeders actually know quite a lot about their breed, and the right breeder will have heard this question 50 times and know the answer.

The pup is not aggressive, it is a normal, healthy exuberant out of control pup!!

I breed boxers, and they can have the same problem.

Don't let the pup run around with little kids ... they get excited, particularly with kids who are running, jumping and screaming -and as they would do to other dogs, they tend to use their teeth, because they cannot differentiate between kids and pups. And because they are excited. Grabbing your doggy brother on the ear or the leg is ok, but it is not ok with kids. They need to learn this.

Teach the pup sit, down, quiet, no. Play with her outside, with balls, ropes etc.....not your hands or body. Don't flap your hands in front of her, or around her head. This is an invitation to nip.

Play with her outside - inside is for quiet time, snuggles and pats. If she is too boisterous, ask her to sit - and give her a pat for being quiet. Continue this for as long as you need Don't pat her, stroke her. Stroke her on the head and neck and back, which will induce quiet behaviour. If she jumps up and wants to run around, again ask her to sit, and then again stroke her and be gentle. By gentle stroking, you will induce relaxation. If she wants to be rough, restrain her, and say "sit' until she does. Continue to do this, and in a surprisingly short time, she will be quiet inside - but make sure she has lots of play time outside, but not with your body, with toys. It;'s ok to bite or chew toys, not people

Get a trainer to help you with the growling over food. I get mine used to my handling the food from when weaning commences, and if they growl, I shake them by the scruff of the neck, as the mother would or simply pick them up, depending on the temperament of the pup. I then put them back with the food, so when they are sold, they are used to people handling them and the food, and accept it as normal. Not all breeders do this though. You cannot reallly shake a pup that age by the scruff of the neck, so get help.

No "whose a good waggy silly dog then" - nothing to stir her up

[patch]

I agree with Jed re don't let her run around with your daughter. Maybe have a really short play and stop her before she gets revved up to the point that she nips - try to stop her developing the habit any further. The trainer I use believes in prevention rather than cure - avoid putting the dog in the situation where the unwanted behaviour occurs - easier said than done I know!

Argh you must be so frustrated - hang in there though - someone will be able to help you.

[Tarmons]

Dogs regard children as puppies..... Molly sees your little daughter as a litter mate with 2 legs

Personally, I would nip the food aggression in the bud- the first growl needs a firm correction " No! aargh!' or whatever word you use to express disapproval. Don't let her get away with it.

You're the boss... the provider of the food.

Don't let her mouth any of you.... those teeth are razor sharp and can do a lot of damage. Bite inhibition training is essential. Be gentle as you remove those teeth from your arm etc but always with a firm 'No!' or a yell indicating that you have been hurt. I always distract my puppies by giving them something else to chew and bite.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Spot on Jed. I will just say this, I've been told many, many times by people that their dogs are "biting". There is a massive difference between biting and nipping.

Biting is aggressive, nipping is typically puppy behaviour or often worknig dog behaviour.

[Embellish]

OK, here is my opinion, I have four labs (two under 12 months and one under two)

start the TOT (as before mentioned, it's free!), buy a crate (even though you can't afford one as mentioned, see if you can stretch your budget), time out when she is naughty, and ignore her barking/crying etc, reward her when she is calm and quiet. Have a big play session with her late afternoon, like before hubby gets home, including some lead training and sit/drop to stimulate her mind - so she will be stimulated mentally and physically before your husband gets home, which should take the edge off her. Get hubby to do the TOT of an evening, yourself in the morning. Please find a reputable trainer that can assess the whole family situation at your home. She is a gorgeous girl that needs to find her place at the bottom of your families "pack".

As I said before this is just my opinion

[poodlefan]

Spot on Jed. I will just say this, I've been told many, many times by people that their dogs are "biting". There is a massive difference between biting and nipping.

Biting is aggressive, nipping is typically puppy behaviour or often worknig dog behaviour.

Conversely Dog Mad, I've heard of someone who complained about their puppy "biting" and was told it was only "mouthing".. and it wasn't. Puppy meant business. That's why it would be great for someone to see this dog.

General rule of thumb.. "mouthing" involves mostly canine teeth .. it tends to be exploratory. If the "mouthing" involves molars and is "chewing", it ain't.

Edited November 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[BenjiMom]

My kittens used to sorta bite also, but used to put my fingers down their throat, and that stopped them. So when i got my GSD, i did the same to him, cept my whole arm. Now, Im NOT saying do this, cause i think back now, and im glad i still have my arm.. i know he could have bitten it off.!!

Benji did it also, but least he grew outta it, wasnt game now to put fingers down his throat lol

[Jed]

Whatever it is, it is wrong. The pup needs to be corrected every time. By saying "aargh" in a growly voice, and immediately stopping what is happening, immediately take your hand or whatever part is in the dog's mouth away, putting the dog into a sit, and praising. Then treat the dog quietly.

I'll get flamed for this - but putting a dog of this age into a crate, or into another room is not immediate enough - a loud enough and cross enough sound gets the pup's immediate attention, so it pauses in what it is doing - so you have stopped the behaviour, and the pup can connect the biting with the growly noise.

I go through this with every litter. You pick them up, they want to put their mouths on you...usually the hand. That is how they interact.

I take my hand away, and do something else with the pup. If it persists, I growl at it. Also, if you never put your hand anywhere the pup can grab it, and don't move it quickly in front of the pup, you are halfway there, and it's easy to turn a pup's head away. If they are biting my ankle (and they do), I growl, remove the ankle, and distract the pup. Only takes a few times for a baby pup to learn this.

and I know when they go to their new homes, the biting/mouthing probably wont begin again - unless the new owners allow the pup to be "wild" and I tell them how to avoid that.

Play with children should not involve running and screaming - it should involve toys - throw toys, tug toys, and no teasing.

Time for running with kids is when the pup is trained, and his brain is big enough to understand.