MarkS Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hi Rom I don't have TV so don't watch Cesar Milan....I can only assume from what is written here that he isn't big on reinforcement/reward....the problem I see with that is that perhaps the dogs he works with are left in a stressed state for too long? I don't believe Cesar should be looked at as a person that isn't big on positive reinforcement/rewards. He is, but only when appropriate, and when its beneficial for the dog, and not for the owner. As Cesar states in just about every episode "Discipline always comes before affection". Remember, whenever we give the dog a positive, ie; praise, affection, food, etc; we are actually reinforcing the dogs current state of mind. Never reward the dog for an insecure state of mind, wait till the dog has adjusted and then reinforce a confident state of mind. When I am modifying a dogs behaviour, I don't immediately start showing the dog affection or praise, I wait till his state of mind is 'in balance'. In Cesars shows you are usually seeing the immediate after affects of the modification, not when the dog has adjusted totally or in a correct state of mind to be rewarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) I really should be doing some work right now, but couldn't help myself. Good post MarkS. Well said. Dogs show stress signals (to varying degrees) all the time during their day to day activities. When teaching a dog a new complex skill, the dog will most certainly become stressed especially when we move to the next stage of the skill as he/she tries to figure out what it is you want (if shaping). The level of stress will vary from dog to dog, but it still be present. So in essence, we should stop this type of training because it is putting the dog under stress.....? Also, when we look at the dogs on the CM show, not all are showing signs of stress....submission is not stress! Some of the true signs of stress: heavy panting, drooling/frothing, yawning, sniffing, looking away, barking, licking. Some of the signs of submission: licking, ears back, long mouth, low posture, rolling over, urinating. Signs of displacement or distance increasing behaviours: licking, looking away, yawning, sniffing, urinating. Therefore, a dog that yawns or licks isn't necesarily stressed. We need to read the entire cluster of signals to interpret the sentence. Edited January 13, 2008 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Watching his shows I find it interesting that he gets people to walk the dogs on a really short leash, so they to stay next to you. Wonder if the dogs learn that next to the human is a good place to be, or if the human has to always use the short leash technique to avoid having the dog out out in front and pull on a full lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hmm..I just wish for more explanation..yes, he does a good job of demonstrating dog facial expressions/body language.. but my mum was telling me of a collar used..so I had a look..it was a prong collar, but To my knowledge he didn't once mention what it was, or show the audience the prongs? Maybe it would not have been beneficial? Don't know.... The program the other night with the Chesapeake..he (Cesar) had the pool fenced off when he started the dog's training...but no reference was made as to 'why'....or if it was to be made permanent? Maybe I'm picky I would like to understand..... ansd thanks to those posting on submissive behaviour etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Watching his shows I find it interesting that he gets people to walk the dogs on a really short leash, so they to stay next to you.Wonder if the dogs learn that next to the human is a good place to be, or if the human has to always use the short leash technique to avoid having the dog out out in front and pull on a full lead. I'd guess he tells his clients that the end result is a dog who doesn't need that short leash, as he walks is own pack off leash, they must follow until they get a few minutes of "free time" to sniff etc. I did enjoy the segment on the dog who was obsessed with light/shadow - I have no idea how those people lived so long with such a dog, it would drive me insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 ...........I did enjoy the segment on the dog who was obsessed with light/shadow - I have no idea how those people lived so long with such a dog, it would drive me insane. Care to share how he handled this obsession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) persephone, I don't think we'll ever get these full explanations on any half hour show unfortunately. Wonder if the dogs learn that next to the human is a good place to be, or if the human has to always use the short leash technique to avoid having the dog out out in front and pull on a full lead Kamuzz, it would be the same as training elephants to remain in a holding area/spot. I remember having explained to me how they train the elephants in India for the tourist rides. Initially the elephant's foot is often tied with heavy chain to a tree for a number of months. This chain is then replaced with a lighter one, then followed by a rope. Then the rope is tied only to the elephant's foot but not the tree....by this stage the elephant has been conditioned that trying to move away is fruitless. Finally, a fine piece of string is tied around the elephant's foot only. By this stage full conditioning has taken place and the elephant does not try to move away from the holding area. Amazing isn't it!! Now I know dogs are not elephants, but it's the same learning principle by walking them on a short lead. Edited January 13, 2008 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 ...........I did enjoy the segment on the dog who was obsessed with light/shadow - I have no idea how those people lived so long with such a dog, it would drive me insane. Care to share how he handled this obsession? I *think* he used a prong and corrected the dog whenever it began to get into the obsessive behaviour of searching for this light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 ... my mum was telling me of a collar used..so I had a look..it was a prong collar, but To my knowledge he didn't once mention what it was, or show the audience the prongs? The "Pressure Point Collar" (PPC) aka pinch or prong collar LOOKS bad. If you want to read the writings of people who are positive only type trainers (I know of no balanced trainer who thinks ill of the PPC), they can and have easily portrayed the PPCollar to people as being some sort of collar that is designed to STICK INTO the dog's neck. They use words of very negative tone and that draws on the imaginations of people to suit how they wish them to think of this tools. IMO nothing could be further from the truth and I wonder at the condoning of a head-collar and negativity towards the PPCollar. I think anyone might wonder, if they cared to really find out how it works and what great responses are received from the dog when used. BUT, to discuss the PPCollar and explain in detail so that the general public could overcome not only how it LOOKS but also the misleading information that has fortified their images of horror and cruelty, would take up a whole show in its entirety. So perhaps that's why CM didn't raise that in his show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 So perhaps that's why CM didn't raise that in his show? CM never mentions the prong as he promotes the choke collar instead. He does say that he uses whatever the owner is already using and what the dog responds to. One dog was wearing a harness which he swapped for a choker but any with prongs he leaves as they are. My secret is out --------------- I watch CM BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 (edited) He always says he works with the tools that the owners are already using and familiar with. I like that about him. He doesn't rely on tools to "rehabilitate dogs". ETA BP beat me to it! Edited January 13, 2008 by ruthless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Aahh..Ok..I just thought it odd, as if HE produced the prong collar, he didn't say anything about it. Thanks:) yep, the light-obsessed dog.. a few corrections with the prong collar..to which the dog responded perfectly..as in..stopped the behviour, was then looking at its owner eagerly.... and ....a walk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Just got back from the USA I have noticed that a lot of people in the USA use prong collars - they don't seem to have the stigma that they do here. I saw more with prong collars than not! So maybe he didn't explain the prong collar as he didn't see the need as he assumed people would be familiar with it? I also noticed several dogs with prongs on the show. I didn't know he used the tools the owner already had. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Except when the owner had a flat collar or a harness then hes used a choker. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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