kaaia Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Sorry to ask yet another toilet training question - I know you've probably heard them all, a few times. But, how long does it normally take to toilet train a dog? And at what point do you have to stop and acknowledge there might be a problem? Can all dogs be paper trained, or are some just untrainable? Anyone have any idea if a professional trainer could help? And how much they might cost, if anyone's used one? I've had my puppy for almost a month now, she's around 17 weeks. She is a smart puppy - I've taught her sit, drop, shake (a paw), stay, and some basic people manners, as she seemed raw when I got her. I got her as a rescue though, and have cleared up her fleas and worms, so she is healthy again, and has doubled her size already.. I am at the end of my rope though with her using my carpet as a toilet. At this age, she should have no problems, from my experience. I have been ignoring her messes and praising her toilet area with treats that she absolutely goes hyper for. When I was a kid, my dad would rub their nose in it, and that took a matter of days, from memory. I have been so far refraining from doing that, but it isnt working. I know this is a lot, and there are a lot of questions, but if anyone can help share their experiences, I would be grateful, thanks. I dont want to have to get rid of her again. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moggy Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Sophie is 10 1/2 months old and she wasn't fully toilet trained until about 2 months ago. I think some dogs take longer than others. We barracaded the carpeted area and kept bedroom doors closed. Also we have a doggy door so it is easy for her to go in and out. It is frustrating and you think it will never end, but it will. Clean soiled areas on carpet with vinegar, which seems to get rid of the smell. Try to keep her off the carpet. Sophie was hopeless at paper training so we just trained her to go outside from the beginning. We are lucky though as we are retirees, so can spend the time with her. Don't give up. She sounds like a smart dog and eventually the penny will drop. Good luck. Moggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 There is some helpful advice in the topic 'Peeing Puppy' in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaia Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) Thanks guys, I guess it happens very often, but I posted right after she'd done it again when I thought I had gotten through to her, hence the exasperation. I also understand that I should have seen it coming though, so part of the frustration was at myself also. A puppy is more work than any of my 3 kids have been so far! (Not a complaint, simply a funny observation!) My youngest child just turned 1, so I have my hands full with a puppy as well! More patience will pull me through though, I guess, if it can take as long as 12 months to potty train. Just nice to know what to expect, since all my experience previously had been within 1 week! But really, Ive seen some dog training places advertising that they teach toilet training - is this really possible? It's not that easy, I thought.. I dont see what they could do any differently. Maybe that's why they say it - simply to pose a question... Thanks Edited June 3, 2008 by kaaia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valby Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 My 11 month old pup still makes mistakes. I found crating at night really helped as did teaching her a pee command so I could make her go before bed etc. To do this I just waited till she did a wee in the right place and then quickly said "good wee" and made a hand gesture (I use a point), then give a treat. I knew I had her when she would run out and wee and then look straight at me. Sometimes she even does fake ones (all action, no wee) just to get the treat or praise hehe. Now I can point and say "go wee" and she will--on most ocassions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaia Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 I knew I had her when she would run out and wee and then look straight at me. Sometimes she even does fake ones (all action, no wee) just to get the treat or praise hehe. My puppy did that too.. I told her to go toilet, and she went and squatted, squeezed out a drop, then looked at me, expectingly! I rewarded her with much excitement and treats. So I thought she understood... but I have been given that impression at least 4 times now.. She is very headstrong, and kind of dominant, always testing her boundaries. Give her an inch, she will take a mile. Could she be doing this as a dominance thing? Like: "I will pee/poop wherever I like, because I'm the boss" ??? I do believe she knows what I'm saying... she learns fast. It only ever takes about 6 times to teach her something new, before she will do it on command.. I dont know if that is good, but I've had 2 dogs before, and neither of those learnt that fast.. But both were easier to potty train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 How often have you been taking her outside kaaia? I think she's saying that she's not ready yet to be the one responsible for the decision to go outside, and she probably needs to be treated in this regard like a brand new 7wk old puppy again for a while. Also (it won't really help in resolving the behaviour, but I'm just curious) what kind of environment was she kept in by the rescue group that had her? The time there may have confused her about the right surfaces to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnauzerlover Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 hi kaaia it took me close to six months to toilet train humphrey. it is difficult sometimes. for me it was like one morning he woke up and he just did it!!!!!!. i still praise him years down the track. keep at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss B Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 We've had our puppy for about a week and a half (she's 10 weeks old) and have found crate-training to be a godsend - it helps so much with the toilet training. She has a designated 'potty' area which we take her to frequently - after she wakes up, after a drink or a meal, after playtime. We are teaching her the command 'potty time!' and whenever she eliminates in the correct area she gets lots of praise and petting. She's getting to the stage now where we can take her almost anywhere, and when we say "potty time!" she will relieve herself almost straight away. She's also started to take herself to the potty area without prompting. She is crated overnight (with either myself or my OH getting up at least once in the night to take her to the potty) and so far she's only had one accident in the crate - and that was the first couple of days we had her. Since then she's been pretty good. Cleaning any 'accidents' on your carpet is really important - make sure there is no ammonium chloride in the cleaner you are using, as it will encourage the dog to use that area again. We just bought a Bissell Pet Vacuum which also shampoos the carpet, and it's really effective at removing doggy odours. Good luck and just stick with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaia Posted June 8, 2008 Author Share Posted June 8, 2008 (edited) Taking her every 45 mins or so, but she will refuse to do anything - she'll just lay down and sleep. If i then move her to her paper, she'll lie down on her newspaper, and rest. As soon as we get out of there, she will hunt for a spot on the carpet, and try to 'go'. Yes, I am cleaning with paper towels, hot water damp washrag, then vinegar spray. It can be hard to keep track of her when it only takes her 2 seconds to find a spot, pee, then come back into view, like nothing happened. Or when I am busy with my girls. Edited June 8, 2008 by kaaia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 (edited) What you've written kaaia suggests that her surface preferences for toileting are back-to-front compared to how we would like them to be. Crating (or other strategy for confinement) will be a godsend, because it seems that free access in the house will as you say, result in her finding her own toilet areas. Most dogs, unless excessive confinement has forced them to toilet near or in their sleeping area previously, are reluctant to go in a crate, and will chose to hang on. This is what I would do... If she's not doing something with you, then, for the time being, she shouldn't be free in the house. (If she's actually doing something with you, like a training session or playing or cuddle session, you'll get more opportunity to intervene and take her outside than if you're just hanging out together, because she'll have to change gears before she can pee - a pup doing nothing in particular can move to peeing much more quickly and drawing less attention to themselves than a pup engaged in another activity). Every 1 - 1.5 hrs she should be taken out, don't play with her, just wait (have treats), set a time limit - say 5 mins - if she goes within that time, reward. If she doesn't, when she comes back inside put her back in the crate and take her out again in 1/2 an hr. Keep doing this until she goes. I'd be reluctant to allow her free unsupervised access to the house even soon after she's been. Be generous with treats - I would give her something when I picked her up to take her inside (otherwise she might start avoiding letting you catch her) and when she goes in the crate (so that she doesn't think she's being punished). Hope that helps :-) Edited June 9, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) To me, successfully toilet training a puppy is watching them like a hawk, becoming aware of their toileting schedules. Trying to never let puppy have a mistake and you'll get to your goal faster. At 17 weeks you should be well on your way to toilet training if not there already, might pay to have a look at how consistent you are being and how many mistakes you're allowing the puppy to have. Crating assisted Dante is toilet training, maybe this is something you may like to consider as well? If you can't watch your puppy at the time you pop them in the crate. We have a 5 week old Staffy x at work at the moment and I know what you mean about laying down on the paper to rest when they're meant to be toileting LOL When this happens I put him back on his bed and then watch him, usually he'll go back to sleep but if he gets out of bed I'm watching him very closely. We're also using the drops you put on the toileting pads that attract the puppy to toilet there. At 5 weeks he is already pooing on the matt consistently but wees we're still stuggling with which is more than fine because he's only 5 weeks old. Edited June 9, 2008 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I would say ditch the paper as she is probably getting confused about being able to toilet inside. Take her outside after she has had a play, sleep, meal etc. Tell her to 'go to the toilet' when she is outside. Wait till she actually goes even if it takes ages. While she is going tell her 'go to the toilet, good girl' and then reward her with a treat when she gets back inside. Is there any way that you can block off the carpeted area of your house so that she can't get in there whilst she isn't supervised? I currently have a foster girl who is 15 months and feral, lived outside in a cage so she knows nothing. The two pups that I am also fostering, who are 3 months, are basically toilet trained now and know what 'go to the toilet' means whn they are taken outside. This has taken about a month. Where as the older girl, who has just arrived, will take a while to retrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVERYLABDESERVESAKID Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I personally hate paper training. I got a 5 month old pup (older unplaced litter), who had been paper trained. I think it just teaches them to pee in the house and what happens when a male dog starts to lift their leg, how does paper training work then ? Paper training was bad news for my daughter doing VCE, who liked to do her homework on the bedroom floor ;) Never, never rub their noses in it, it is revolting and they do not associate the toileting on the floor with you now shoving their face in it. The best way to toilet train a puppy is to never let an accident happen in the house, if one happens it is your fault not the dogs fault, just clean it up and don't make a drama of it. Make a place in the yard for toileting, by putting some pee soiled paper and transfering a couple of poos there, then take the puppy out to that spot, where it can smell its business on the ground and stay with it as long as it takes. Take the puppy out before sleep, after sleep, before meals, after meals, before play, after play. Every other time the puppy should be confined and under your direct supervision either in a crate or I just used to put my puppy on a lead and tie it to the leg of the desk. Use a key word, hurry up, do wees, go toilet, something like that and then when you get the response praise, praise, praise, reward even the fake wees that are done to please you. You need to learn to watch the puppies body language, he will have a "tell" that you will pick up on when he needs to go to the toilet, some puppies start to sniff around, some their little tail sags down at the back, some stick their tails straight up in the air and get a spacey look in their eye, some do circle work. My little bloke does circle work, now at 3.5 years old he still does circle work and I say "outside" and he does circle work all the way to the back door, runs straight out, lifts his leg on the verandah post and whips back in. I think it is important to stay with the puppy when they go out for a business and then let them straight back in the house. If you just open the back door and let the puppy out and leave it out for longer than the wee takes, then they learn that they get a negative re-inforcement (being left outside alone) whenever they want to go to the toilet, so they are more likely to sneak off and do it somewhere in the house, so they don't get put outside. When they are older, they have learnt to make it happen quick, so they can come straight back in while you hold the door open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaia Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 yes she is 17 weeks, but weve only had her a month of that, and idk what happened to her before then. We didnt get her from a shelter, we rescued her from the bad situation. We dont have the option of taking her outside - if she cant understand to potty on the paper, we're gonna have to rehome her, with someone who has the outside option. Now she just thinks whenever she pees or poops she gets rewarded. Even if she poops on the carpet, she will still come straight to me, expecting treats. I am rewarding anything, even fake ones, when done on the paper, and I can't help it - I do get frustrated when she does it on the carpet, but I dont take it out on her other than simply saying "No.", pushing her out of the way so she doesnt step on it in her excitement at having done it, and wanting the treat for it. But I am sure she knows I am upset. I dont have a crate for her, but maybe I should get one. I am using a couch right now, which works until she needs to go potty... then if I am not looking, she will just jump down and go - making sure to be very quiet so I cant hear her jumping down. Most times, I can keep her going on the paper.. but if left on her own, even right after she has used the paper, she will still use the carpet. She did her normal 2 poops this morning, so I let her out, and then she pooped again on the floor. /sigh... I hate having to restrict her like this, it isnt any fun for her. Oh well, thanks for the advice, I guess I will keep doing what I'm doing. Maybe it just takes more persistance. I am only hesitant to get a crate for her, because I am thinking it might be more trouble than it is worth. She tends to get panicked if I have to walk away for a minute, even to change a nappy. She has a little seperation anxiety, which we are also working on. She wasnt treated very nicely where she was, so she is very timid, and afraid of new people. She hides and growls at friends who visit.. so am teaching her that new people means lots of treats for her... am hoping that will help her some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 What about trying those fake grass thingies? This... http://www.bowhouse.com.au/p/393266/pup-he...dog-dunny-.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalandLibby Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) We dont have the option of taking her outside - if she cant understand to potty on the paper, we're gonna have to rehome her, with someone who has the outside option.You can still follow the suggestions I made above if you're taking her to a specific area of your flat. I'd keep her on lead while you do this (and I'd carry her there rather than walk her over the carpet).There are pheromone drops that you can use to communicate to a dog that this is the right spot, although I've never found them very helpful. And I suspect they'd be even less helpful when as in your case there may be traces left of other times she's toileted in other places, telling her that those are the right spots. Now she just thinks whenever she pees or poops she gets rewarded. Even if she poops on the carpet, she will still come straight to me, expecting treats.That's great - you don't want this hiccup to mess with her trust in you.I dont have a crate for her, but maybe I should get one. I am using a couch right now, which works until she needs to go potty... then if I am not looking, she will just jump down and go - making sure to be very quiet so I cant hear her jumping down. Most times, I can keep her going on the paper.. but if left on her own, even right after she has used the paper, she will still use the carpet. She did her normal 2 poops this morning, so I let her out, and then she pooped again on the floor. /sigh...I hate having to restrict her like this, it isnt any fun for her. Oh well, thanks for the advice, I guess I will keep doing what I'm doing. Maybe it just takes more persistance. I am only hesitant to get a crate for her, because I am thinking it might be more trouble than it is worth. She tends to get panicked if I have to walk away for a minute, even to change a nappy. She has a little seperation anxiety, which we are also working on. She wasnt treated very nicely where she was, so she is very timid, and afraid of new people. She hides and growls at friends who visit.. so am teaching her that new people means lots of treats for her... am hoping that will help her some. I think most ppl who have used a crate will tell you that their dogs become really attached to their crates. My sensitive boy hears something that frightens him and goes straight to his crate - it's the safest place he knows. But you do have to do it right - you don't want her to freak out while she's in there or she will become likely to avoid it. So the crate should not signal to her that she will be left by herself, rather that you will be around, poking a steady stream of nice things through the bars for her. Your awareness that she is likely to freak out is valuable information - I would suggest that you get a small crate, big enough for her now, that is easy to move around the house as you move. If you can get it, Susan Garrett Crate Games dvd is great for teaching dogs to love their crates and show very self-controlled behaviour around them. Edited June 10, 2008 by WalandLibby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 This helped me enormously. http://www.siriuspup.com/beforebook.html My advice (from a novice)... - Start crate training immediately. - Take your dog outside EVERY two hours without fail. Wake up in the middle of the night to do it. I did. Every time the dogs makes a mistake in the house you take 2 steps backwards. - Watch the dog every second when it's not in it's crate. - Never let the dog loose in the house unless it's JUST been to the toilet - Keep a toilet diary so you can anitipate when the dog usually goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoodleNut Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 This helped me enormously.http://www.siriuspup.com/beforebook.html My advice (from a novice)... - Start crate training immediately. - Take your dog outside EVERY two hours without fail. Wake up in the middle of the night to do it. I did. Every time the dogs makes a mistake in the house you take 2 steps backwards. - Watch the dog every second when it's not in it's crate. - Never let the dog loose in the house unless it's JUST been to the toilet - Keep a toilet diary so you can anitipate when the dog usually goes Ditto to the above (BUT! what's with the toilet diary Luke W!!! Way tooooo much time on your hands .... do you take piccies too ... little bit like CSI!! :D ) Our pup is now 6 months and still does not have reigh of the house. Noodle went into the back room for a play the other night and went on the carpet (missed the signs .. our own fault!!) ... I also have a theory that dogs may think the carpet is like teh lawn and go on that .. she hasn't been on the parquetry or the lino for a VERY long time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 This helped me enormously.http://www.siriuspup.com/beforebook.html My advice (from a novice)... - Start crate training immediately. - Take your dog outside EVERY two hours without fail. Wake up in the middle of the night to do it. I did. Every time the dogs makes a mistake in the house you take 2 steps backwards. - Watch the dog every second when it's not in it's crate. - Never let the dog loose in the house unless it's JUST been to the toilet - Keep a toilet diary so you can anitipate when the dog usually goes Ditto to the above (BUT! what's with the toilet diary Luke W!!! Way tooooo much time on your hands .... do you take piccies too ... little bit like CSI!! ) Our pup is now 6 months and still does not have reigh of the house. Noodle went into the back room for a play the other night and went on the carpet (missed the signs .. our own fault!!) ... I also have a theory that dogs may think the carpet is like teh lawn and go on that .. she hasn't been on the parquetry or the lino for a VERY long time) :D :D Want me to send you the pics? The little diagrams of where he went? The graphs of weight versus time versus previous food consumption? The sound recordings? Too much time on my hands? Moi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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