Walking The Dog A La Cesar Milan

[dee lee]

Corvus, I think you have drawn some frustrated responses here purely because you theorise without any practical solution and your experience with your dogs you mention frequently, Im afraid you should expect someone to call you on it.

Why are you focusing so much on the word "dominant"?

In not listening to its owner, whether on leash or not, the dog is in control not the human- which is why I mentioned the word dominant, perhaps it can be argued that this is not the right word but thats semantics and not the point. The point is that the dog is not obeying your commands and therefore is challenging your authority. I call that dominance- you dont have to, whatever, its not a good situation.

Additionally, being overpowered by their drive is just not acceptable in a dog that is "difficult"- and you cannot allow a DA dog free reign, it is HUGELY irresponsible.

Discounting DA, I have a dog who unless she is kept at heel WILL pull. This is despite a lot of training (using your exact method and others) and due to reasons my dog is not revealing to me. I assume, that this would be why Caesar insists on strong discipline with his difficult dogs.

[corvus]

Sorry deelee. It was just a thought prompted by what you said and I wasn't picking on you. You aren't the only one that has said a dog that isn't listening is a dominant dog. I'm just focusing on that because it was what prompted me to think. I will start another thread.

I theorise because to answer a question you have to have one!

I would want very good control of a difficult dog as well, but the question is is this much discipline always the best thing? Cesar takes so many dogs out at once that I would think having them all strictly in line is pretty important, otherwise surely it would be pandemonium? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he is also of the dominance theory school of thought and does believe that a dog walking out front is a dominant one, but who sees him pronouncing over a dog walking out front that is still taking their lead from the one on the other end of the leash? I've never seen it. He doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would blindly say such a dog was dominant when it was clearly following directions from behind.

[WoofnHoof]

I think a lot of it is about direction, just like horses if you give a dog something to pull against it will! I've said before I allow my sibe to have weight in the lead because that is his purpose in life and it makes him happy. However that purpose also needs direction, which he gets from me, not very well because I'm not all that disciplined but he's an easy dog so I can get away with it. Essentially I let him go straight in front at whatever pace I can keep up with, I only correct if he diverts track or stops, I just give the leash a tug and say "come on" in a stern voice and he gets back on track very quickly.

Being out in front and having weight in the lead doesn't mean he's the boss because he is still listening out for instructions from me, whether it's woah or turn or whatever, and he will look back to see where I'm going if he's not sure of the direction. On the other hand I have horses who will pull like steam trains if you let them and of course half a ton of horse pulling you along is never a good idea. When riding, again the horse is in front but the attention must be back towards me, and if they pull they get pulled up short and sharp and then an immediate release. It has been very useful learning with horses because it teaches you about timing, if you don't release quick smart they learn to just keep pulling because they haven't been rewarded for stopping. Because dogs are predator animals it's a bit different but the general principle of giving clear and consistent direction I think is very much the same.

The thing is that having weight in the lead or having the dog in front is not necessarily a bad thing, but some weight does not mean all weight, you need somewhere to go if you need to do a correction, so if you have a dog that likes to have weight in the lead it might be easier to allow him a little bit, but not enough to drag you along and not so much that you have compromised your ability to pull him up.

I don't require my dog to have his attention on me at all times because I personally think that it is very strenuous and distressing for a dog to have to ignore everything else the whole time when he's out and about, but that's just me and like I said my dog is easy so I can get away with it. :rolleyes:

I've often noticed that the more people are emotionally affected by their animal's behaviour, the less effective their signals are to the animal. I know a lady with a young quarter horse who has been having a lot of trouble, so much so that she is selling him. Now the majority of QHs are the crusiest things around, but I met this horse once and I knew he was going to be a terd because he had zero ground manners, I was chatting to her and another friend in the paddock and this horse literally barged past anyone who was in his way! I couldn't believe it and I didn't do anything because it wasn't my horse but I wasn't particuarly surprised to hear that this horse has progressed to striking and rearing with this poor lady. The trouble is that she didn't recognise the barging behaviour for what it was, which was him having no understanding of her role as his leader, she just thought of him as a lovely big baby and couldn't understand why he would hurt her. Of course the horse has no idea he was hurting her he was just so used to being allowed to behave in that manner that he didn't know any other way to behave. Anyway my friend is now working with her to show her how to give him "tough love" and learn a few manners and he is picking it up very quickly. The moral to my long winded story is that I think that dominant behaviour is not necessarily one single behaviour, it is the overall attitude of the animal towards you as it's leader. And I suspect it correlates very much with the attitude of the handler who must feel like a leader in order to provide leadership.

That's my 2c

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

That's my point in bold. If you are just a brake, is the dog even thinking about where they stand in relation to you socially?

The dog is disinterested in your or has disregarded you.. either zero relationship or bugger all respect.

How can it be considered dominant behaviour if all they are doing is being overpowered by their drives? It seems to me that just because we stand on the other end of the leash somehow a dog should magically want to go where we want to go and if they don't they are dominant?

If no training has ever been given, you may be right. However, most habitual lead pullers I know have had ineffective training or simply don't consider there is sufficient motivaton or consqequence to do other than what they wish to do. Foxhounds are sometimes trained by coupling a younger dog to an experienced hunter. The younger dog learns quite quickly that it goes where the older dog goes..

There is no "magic" in a good dog handler relationship. Generally there is effort - sometimes a lot of it.

What about if they are in the backyard and you want to sit in the sun but they want to go dig up the garden? Does that mean they are dominant?

Have you asked anything of them? Are they placing their interests above yours? I think not.

What if they are off leash and you want to walk down the beach but they want to run into the waves? Are they dominant then?

Same answer. They are free to do as they choose. They are not choosing to do what they want over what you want them to do.

What's the difference between wanting to run when they are on leash and wanting to run when they are off leash? I'm asking because I don't get it.

The difference is that on lead, the handler's wants come into play. You can't talk about dominance or submission until there is a relationship to discuss. In this case, that relationship has a physical link - the lead. If you want to talk about offleash training as opposed to free running then the difference is that without a leash the handler has no physical means of restraint - the relationship is all there is.

Dominance isn't about the handler giving the dog free rein to do as it pleases. Dominance is about the dog choosing to place its interests above any demands the handler has.

[Kelpie-i]

Sorry, it's been a long day for me and I am extremely exhausted but couldn't help myself in reading some of this thread.

What's with all the dominance rubbish??

A dog pulls on the lead because we let it....simple. It's not rocket science. Over time we've allowed him to practice and strenghten his opposition reflex and rewarded him by following it when it drags us around. I cannot see how this is dominance.

Again, I am weary so probably haven't understood the conversation.

[poodlefan]

Sorry, it's been a long day for me and I am extremely exhausted but couldn't help myself in reading some of this thread.

What's with all the dominance rubbish??

A dog pulls on the lead because we let it....simple. It's not rocket science. Over time we've allowed him to practice and strenghten his opposition reflex and rewarded him by following it when it drags us around. I cannot see how this is dominance.

Again, I am weary so probably haven't understood the conversation.

Well, that's a real discussion stopper.

[Kelpie-i]

Sorry PF, didn't mean to...like I said I'm tired so probably shouldn't written anything.

Carry on.....

[dee lee]

Kelpie-i, Corvus has fixated on the word dominance- I think arguing about whether it is the right word or not is pointless and I have said so.

Basically we have been trying to discuss whether strong discipline is needed when walking dogs- I for one feel the need to because I refuse to "let" my dog pull. I dont really care whether she is pulling from dominance or from drive- its not acceptable.

[Just Midol]

I personally feel it can be related to dominance, it can also be because the dog simply thinks you, as the boss, allows it.

I don't walk my dogs like he does, but I would if I had to.

[Shakti]

Just to answer an earlier question - at the beginning of every episode you can see Cesar running/walking with his own pack and they are all off-leash and at times they run in front of him at times. The difference between Cesar's own pack and the *problem* dogs he works with during the show are that his own dogs are well-balanced and in a calm-submissive state to him so he does not need to assert his authority over them during the free walk part of their walk. With the dogs he is rehabilitating they have not accepted him as dominant to them and he cannot allow them any freedom until they learn to abide by *rules, boundaries and limitations*.

Walking a dog who is less interested in me than in their environment would be a bit like going for a romantic walk along the beach with my partner and having him say *Yahoo - the beach! Catch you back at the car in 60 minutes!*

My dogs get a LOT of free running on our daily walks but at all times they will *down* or *sit*or *heel* if I tell them too and that is WHY they get so much freedom to sniff and play and run.

[sandgrubber]

Just to answer an earlier question - at the beginning of every episode you can see Cesar running/walking with his own pack and they are all off-leash and at times they run in front of him at times.

In my book the brief repeated introductory shot hardly counts . . . it's just a quick atmosphere shot with nothing to show that it's actually a walk or part of the daily routine of a well adjusted dog. For all I can tell, it's something his PR crew set up and has nothing to do with daily life.his dogs' daily existences.

edited to correct punctuation

Edited March 1, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Tonymc]

whatever we see has to be taken in context. Tony