JulesP Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Prior to starting herding Poppy tended to the snappy border collie girl. It seems to be a resource guarding issue with me & my bag. Since starting herding she is much worse. She stalks, lunges and snaps at any dog that comes with a couple of meters of us. If the dogs back off she is happy, if they even offer play behavior she is not happy. She does not display body language to indicate either fear or dominance aggression. She shows 'herding' body language. This is all controllable on lead. However it is now effecting sit & down stays. She has been looking increasingly unhappy in sit stays. Yesterday a young GSD was staring at her in the down stay and she was very unhappy. She had a snap at him. She was displaying very unhappy, nervy behavior but I am now thinking that she was in conflict as she wanted to go tell him off but knew that she had to stay put. So I think she was upset less because she was scared of the dog then that she wanted badly to tell him off. We let the dogs off at the end of class and she was mainly interested in 'herding' the dogs up rather than playing with them. I got home and put her in a stay next to my other dog and she was unhappy about that too! She has always been very intense and someone described her as the fun police. Not sure how to tackle this issue. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 How far into her herding training are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Have you talked to your herding instructor to see what they think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 About to do PT and have have trained a tiny bit of Started stuff. So not far. Haven't spoken to the herding instructor yet. When she has bossed other dogs at training they have just laughed at her. It was the herding instructor that called her the fun police. I should add that the dogs that she tells off don't tend to go back at her. They mostly just back off so she she gets lots of wins. The herding instructor did say that she was very 'strong'. But in a all dogs free and at home situation she is fairly submissive. She is the bottom of the pack here. But when she is out and in work mode she will tell Brock off. At home he bosses her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) About to do PT and have have trained a tiny bit of Started stuff. So not far. You might find it is because her herding training is incomplete. Similar to training in drive - in the early days it is possible for dogs to go through the "whatever you have in your hand is for me" phase as they haven't had a chance for their word association training to have been completed. Maybe this is similar - you're not teaching your dog her herding instinct, she already has that. But you are teaching when she can and when she can't exhibit it and you're providing an outlet and chance to obtain drive satisfaction. But I don't know too much on herding training - only what I have seen and then thought out for myself. From the little I've seen on it, I believe that until the "city dog's" herding training is furthered to a higher level, the dog is not put into a big field with a flock of sheep. Instead, the activity is maintained in a coral where the trainer retains control and can shape the dog to the correct behaviours and word association response. I would go back to your instructor and ask him to explain to you how he sees it impacting in other areas and how he sees it improving (assuming that he does). Haven't spoken to the herding instructor yet. When she has bossed other dogs at training they have just laughed at her. It was the herding instructor that called her the fun police. I should add that the dogs that she tells off don't tend to go back at her. They mostly just back off so she she gets lots of wins. How does this occur? Does he have multiple dogs out training at the one time? ETA: Kelpie-i would know more on this than I do. Edited June 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Poppy is past the coral stage. She is at the out in a paddock stage. "How does this occur? Does he have multiple dogs out training at the one time? confused.gif" Not sure why you think this?? Dogs as in dogs at various times not all at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) If the herding training is done correctly it should have no impact on dog aggression or resource guarding. I had one dog that was extremely dog aggressive but he would work sheep with another dog and even tie up next to another dog while waiting to work because he was focussed on the sheep. I think that one of the things that isn't stressed enough in the test levels of herding is that the dog must be instantly obedient and the dogs focus must be on the sheep not on other things. A lot of dogs who get their HT are not under effective control. Until you have a good stop and flanks your dog or a dog with natural distance and an instinctive reading of their sheep shouldn't be out of a large round yard or a HT arena. The dog should be working for you not itself. Prior to starting herding Poppy tended to the snappy border collie girl. It seems to be a resource guarding issue with me & my bag. Since starting herding she is much worse. I think this answers your question. You had the problem before starting herding and maybe because of your inexperience in herding you have let her take some of the control of the herding and this is carrying over to her behaviour to other areas. This is not a criticism of you personally. As I found out today that I don't have enough control over my dog when trying an advanced cast in a 100 acre paddock. We went back a few steps and just worked on the top of the cast and then back to the round yard to work on stops and flanks. He is entered in 3 intermediate B courses but will be withdrawn till he consistently does an advanced cast in an open paddock because he does have problems. I don't know how your training is structured but I wouldn't have my dog hanging around waiting for their turn at training but go and get the dog when the dog or 2 before you is training Have you done training on having your dog in a stop holding the sheep for extended periods? It can be done with the sheep in a corner or if the dog is advanced enough if the open. And when waiting to go in do you just stand with your dog or put her on a stay? These excersises will help with the stay. Edited June 7, 2009 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Yesterday a young GSD was staring at her in the down stay and she was very unhappy. She had a snap at him. She was displaying very unhappy, nervy behavior but I am now thinking that she was in conflict as she wanted to go tell him off but knew that she had to stay put. Having a another dog staring at her is dominaent behaviour on that dogs part so I would expect her to react if her obedience training isn't advanced ie Open. In a training situation I would have said something to the other handler or gone back to my dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 She has a very good stop and is following my instructions whilst herding. I went and stood between her and the GSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 She has a very good stop and is following my instructions whilst herding. I went and stood between her and the GSD. Herding instinct is modified prey drive and if she is listening to you and obeying you instantly it should not affect her behaviour elsewhere as she is bringing the prey to you to do what you want. I would look at her behaviour outside herding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Jules,Janba has hit the nail on the head!!!!The answer is in your own post.This behaviour was evident well before the dog even saw an old Ewe. For change to happen,first we must change.I would be getting a qualified person who will tell it as it is to have a look at the way you interact with this dog away from herding. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I doubt that this behaviour has been caused by herding. She may be more aroused when stock are near and getting hyped up as she wants to get out and work but this wouldn't affect her behaviour away from sheep. It may not be a good idea to have her playing with a group of dogs after working when she is excited. I don't blame her for reacting when the GSD was staring at her - I wouldn't like a Shepherd that was bigger than me staring at me either. I agree with the suggestion of getting a qualified person to observe her and try to work out why she is behaving this way and then help you work to solve the problem. There are lots of reasons why dogs show agression but fear is the most common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) Lots of extremely knowledgeable have seen her and the response is usually 'that is weird'. Ummm it was me that said that the behavior what present prior to the herding so you aren't telling me anything that I didn't know. Trying to make me feel like a moron is really not helping the situation. Edited June 7, 2009 by JulesP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 JulesP, from what you're describing i think one of my girls used to do something similar. It improved dramatically when i actively 'took care of things for her'- ie, anticipating the reaction and removing her or the other dog before it happened and worked on her obedience around other dogs with big releases and rewards for focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 That is pretty much what I have been doing Cosmolo. The second I stop controlling things though she is back to it. So I can work with another dog for 5-10 mins. Have them passing each other, sitting side by side etc. Poppy is focused on me. Then me and the other owner might relax and have a chat about the training and she is straight back to snapping at the other dog. The only dog she didn't snap at that day was an equally snappy border collie!! They just gave each other a couple of side ways glances. So on lead it is manageable. Off lead at a distance of 6 meters is a bit of a problem. I did think that the GSD started it but it was me that got in trouble. Interestingly one of the quiet dogs that I worked with also had a go at the GSD. And this dog didn't react at all when Poppy snapped at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 How long has she been doing it for and how old is she? Cosmo's seemed to get worse during her second fear period and it probably took a good 6 months or so for her to be where she is now. I would crate her when i wasn't working her, away from other dogs and pushed the dog distractions with her obedience while i was close to her- dogs running past, leaping around etc. If she can't deal with a dog looking at her (and i am of the opinion all dogs should be proofed for this and more), i would not be doing any distance work at all. How do you respond when she is snappy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 She is 18 months old. She started doing it at around 1 yo. This is the first time that she has reacted during a stay exercise. About 2 weeks ago I noticed that her sit stay was getting a bit dodgy, lots of front feet moving up and down, so I have been working on that. Prior to that she had solid stays. I try to avoid the snapping in the first place by keeping some distance and asking her to focus on me. If she looks at a look with evil intent and I ask her to leave it and she does then I treat her. If she moves into a lunge then I go to using an arrr leave it. I then might do a focus and treat that. We also tried time outs, so she lost me if she tried to resource guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) I try to avoid the snapping in the first place by keeping some distance and asking her to focus on me. If she looks at a look with evil intent and I ask her to leave it and she does then I treat her. I would be careful about how you treat her for that .... Is it possible that she could perceive you as rewarding the sequence of : look with evil intent + look away on "leave it" = I get a reward. ? Watch your timing for this. Edited June 8, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 Sooooo whether or not herding has anything to do with it, I now have a problem with stays. Very hard to train with a reactive dog without upsetting the other dogs! But you need to train with the other dogs to get past it. I could stay in close proximity but a friend that was watching and I both thought that made her worse on the weekend. In hindsight I probably should have just removed her. I did some stays with her and her brother yesterday that went well. Interestingly I was just watching the dogs on their beds. Poppy appeared scared to get on the bed next to Brock. She wanted to get on the bed but was looking at Brock, looking at me and squeaking, going and licking my old dog. She wouldn't get on the bed until I called her (from inside), Brock did give her a bit of a glare but left her when I told him to. They didn't appear comfortable and Poppy fussed and her and Fern have now swooped beds and everyone is happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I could stay in close proximity but a friend that was watching and I both thought that made her worse ... I think there's a clue in what you've said above. Maybe you need to look closer into what you are doing, how you are projecting yourself, and maybe your leadership routine .... and work on the proximity side of things first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now