Ptolomy Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The off season is the time to sort out issues that we have had during the Obedience trialling year. Here is the chance to post an issue and get feedback on whether others have the same problem, or some hints on what you would do to cure the problem. Please join in - I believe that everybody has something to offer My problem..... well Bean's really In the COP (change of positions) I give the down signal and she takes a huge step to her right and then drops. ;) She has always done this. If I stand her next to a post or a cone then it doesn't happen, but usually in a trial you don't get the chance to use a post or a cone and it usually costs us a couple of points. Any suggestions on how to cure this ......please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Ptolomy - hmm seems odd posting a suggestion to solve one of my obedience guru's problem but here goes... Have you tried progressing reducing the size of the "barrier". What is she like with something that isn't as imposing as a cone or a post. Have you tried it next to a broad jump board turned on the edge (got to find a use for them somehow ) or even a thickish bit of rope. Then leading to a thinner bit of rope and fading it that way. Is the problem distance related or does it happen even if your standing directly in front of her? Oh and what would happen if you tried giving a sit and then a down - I know that isn't what happens in COP but is only issue sideways movement on the down from the stand? Ah just like you always answer a question with another question ;) . Edited November 21, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Interesting.... a step to the right, so she's not coming forward at all?! I had issues with Leo taking one huge step forward before dropping. I went back to luring (no cue) and then when he had the foldback down pat, adding a new cue ("park"). Worked well for us Is it in avoidance of something???? Does she ever offer a straight down?! so for example, if it's about 70/30 with 70% being her dropping to the right, one thing you can try is if she drops to the right, release her automatically then ask the behaviour again. I don't want to NRM, but just release her, because after all she *did* do as you asked... which was drop.... when she drops straight down C&T, jackpot and finish... I'm out of ideas otherwise Me?! I'll come back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) I presume you do this exercise in front of her? You must be, else she wouldn't be able to take a huge step to the right because you'd be in the way. Or did you mean 'huge step to the left'? Either of those, I would ask : What's your body language doing? What's your hand signal? How do you hold your motivator (tug; treats;) when you've trained/training her? If she's moving to the left, is she making it so she can see the toy/treats better? When you've trained to fix this issue by using a barrier, have you done many repetitions this was and worked off that gradually? How far from her in front are you? If there's distance, I'd reduce that back to zero and work on a gentle 'guide' as you give the verbal command. The guide to stop her from moving right. Use your voice (eg: ahah or good) as appropriate and use it as early in her movements as possible. Re-work getting distance in very gradually to begin with so that she understands moving into drop from static (ie without stepping) is what you want. Edited November 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Hmmm I know Scoota works with open treat containers I am not sure how Beans does but could you place a jackpot container so that moving to the right is moving her away from the jackpot container. A bit like placing the reward behind the dog so that the dog doesn't come forward. Maybe even placing it to the left so she is having to go left a fraction to counter the going right behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Any object on her right, no matter how small, will stop her from stepping to the right. I have created the problem - because I didn't go back and fix it when it first started happening And like all novice dogs you have problems with the dog sitting up, or not sitting up in most cases - so I stopped worrying about the side step and started rewarding/Jackpotting the sit up. Distance related - nah I can pretty much bet my house on her stepping sideways no matter how close or far away I am standing - its almost like she thinks this is part of the exercise, and she is only going sideways - not forward at all So I am open to suggestions - and will give them all a go in an attempt to solve her little issue PS in her first UD trial last week - the judge commented on her sidways step before dropping and said isn't that cute she was trying to line herself up to present straight ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Distance related - nah I can pretty much bet my house on her stepping sideways no matter how close or far away I am standing - its almost like she thinks this is part of the exercise, and she is only going sideways - not forward at all So I am open to suggestions - and will give them all a go in an attempt to solve her little issue I'd try guide, showing and placing her combined with appropriate use of voice to indicate "heading in the right (or wrong) direction". And I'd do quite a lot of repetitions on that before I moved to the next increment, which would be the 'hands off' approach. Then bring back distance. Do you train in drive? Using drive training and the fast responses that often comes with it, you can sometimes get a dog to do something almost before he/she's realised he/she's done it, and this can iron out some wrinkles when it comes to taking steps to accomplish static positions/position changes. Edited November 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 How far sideways is she going - is it obvious on the UD video - should I go and have a look . Can you go back to luring her into a drop and then building distance back? What happens if you give a NRM for the sideways movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Erny - I am standing in front of the dog - a usual COP is about 5m approximately - but as I said she will still move sideways if I reduce the distance to 3m. Perhaps even 3m is too far and I need to go even closer and reward when she gets it right and give an oh too bad so sad when she gets it wrong. The one problem I have in trying to solve this issue, or any issue, is that tollers don't do well with repetition - they either start throwing all sorts at you because they think they have got it wrong - or the bigger problem is that they start anticipating - and I have visions of her dropping as I walk away to leave her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) ... tollers don't do well with repetition - they either start throwing all sorts at you because they think they have got it wrong - or the bigger problem is that they start anticipating - and I have visions of her dropping as I walk away to leave her Randomise the exercises then. Do lots of repetitions (eg. in the GSP suggestion I made) but also do sits from drops; drops to stand; sit/stays; stand/stays. And hey .... don't worry if she does begin to anticipate. In the process of training, that's often normal. I usually just go in and work on the other of the exercises if this begins to happen. Once the dog gets it clearer, reliability generally returns. Edited November 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Could you mix it up ala UDX change of positions or would that fry Bean's brain. ETA. Think Erny and I are on the same wavelength - they just beat me to it . Edited November 21, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 ETA. Think Erny and I are on the same wavelength - they just beat me to it . Thinking the same thing when I read your posts, Ness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 You might both be onto something Erny and Ness - thanks for your suggestions. I will try mixing it up more and sometimes doing a sit. I am not sure if I asked for a sit whether a) that would fry her brain or b) whether she would still step sideways. I will also try reducing the distance to see if I can work out where it actually goes pearshaped and build reliability before building distance. So if a dog was moving forward would you recommend the same things - or would you suggest something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 If the dog was moving forward I'd be placing the reward behind the dog and sending them back to get it. Also working them on a step so they can't come forward to condition the response I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I would be playing with the drop signal, bring it in a little or change arms. Also just to see what happens - go out for a COP and then take a step yourself to the side that she moves before the COP and then see what she does. If she still moves over it might be that she now thinks that a COP means a step to the side and then down. In which case I would be re-training it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I would try aligning her beside a step or other low drop off, so she hasn't got a physical barrier in her periphial vision, and pattern train her until its default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 I would be playing with the drop signal, bring it in a little or change arms. I can't possibly change arms as I am so unco with my left. I am also working 5 dogs and trialling 4 of them. My first dog Lara had one set of signals and then I started working Blaize and decided to change my stand and about turns. Well the number of times I did the wrong signal for the wrong dog, or the wrong turn - it was just lucky for me that Lara had more clue than I did So for the mere fact that I need to keep it uniform for all I will leave this one. But I will certainly try the step to the side to see if that makes any difference at all. Dogdude - I know a lof of people who teach DOR and COP on a step or a verandah - so that the dog can't move forward. I am not sure if she will put two and two together and not move sideways if there is a small drop there or not. Yep I agree I need to pattern train and get it right before making it harder and then taking it out on the road. Anybody else got a problem you would like some suggestions on how to cure or am I the only one with an issue ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 I actually use the drive item behind the dog to stop forward movement, and have just corrected that very thing. The problem I am having atm is dumbell mouthing. The problem arose in the teaching method in the first place like most problems do. She just would'nt hold the dumbell in the correct position in her mouth (just behind the canines). I tried everything I could think of before moving on and teaching her the rest (my biggest mistake). I tried to reinforce the pressure on the dumbell in the right postion (using resistance) which seemed to work. As soon as we chained everything together, the dumbell just kept slipping down towards the molars, causing more slight mouthing. Every other dog I have trained has always maintained pressure on the dumbell, but she seems to relax as soon as her bum hits the ground, even know she is still in drive. I have also tinkered with various drive levels, and reward sequences to se if that would change what she is doing, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. the mouthing is quite slight, but annoying to me, and not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Anybody else got a problem you would like some suggestions on how to cure or am I the only one with an issue We're not trialling in obedience yet, but can I jump in? I have a sighthound mix, who for quite a while I have been trying to teach her the start of the retrieve - just to hold something in her mouth. We gradually "shaped" it up from look at dumbell, touch dumbell, take dumbell in mouth.... at which point, she launches said dumbell across the room!! I've tried different items, but for her, she always sees them as either a toy, or something that needs to be killed Any suggestions on what I can do about it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Ptolomy I had another thought. You do agility too don't you? I wonder if doggie is mixing up the drop signal a bit with the point in agility?? I am assuming that she is moving on the same side as your hand? My problem is Poppy is scared in the stays. In the down stay it isn't so much of a problem. In the sit stays she looks nervous and then drops. She is fine at home. She did get a fright at the beginning of the year when a large shepherd eyeballed her. Pretty much haven't been able to do a competition stay since. Very frustrating as the rest of her work is nice. She is 2yo. I don't trust her not to snap at other dogs if she feels threatened and as I don't want to stuff up other people's stays it is hard to train to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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