ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Hmmm huski honestly I am yet to find Kenzie's but then she is a working breed so maybe its not as likely. She has other issues that impact on her ability to work in certain situations but its not about her not wanting to work its because her nerves shut down her ability to work. That is different in my book. She certainly isn't assessing whether there is a reward on offer in that circumstance. Ness on the other hand has always had a bit of a show me the reward and I'll throw 110% in, if there is no visible reward then she will weigh up whether she is going to perform or not. Edited November 25, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 She's hilarious huski - you gotta love a Beagle's whoo whoo whoo whoo! Thanks for the vid - yep makes sense - so you get her to chase your hand, cease when she is really trying hard and then ask for something and then reward - is that about right? DD also had an excellent point about teaching your dog self-control and then asking for the opposite in training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hmmm huski honestly I am yet to find Kenzie's but then she is a working breed so maybe its not as likely. She has other issues that impact on her ability to work in certain situations but its not about her not wanting to work its because her nerves shut down her ability to work. That is different in my book. She certainly isn't assessing whether there is a reward on offer in that circumstance. That must be so frustrating It sounds like she's pretty prey driven though? I would rather have a prey driven dog over food drive, if I had the choice! No chance that the dog will get full The problem I had with Daisy was that her scent drive was so strong that it was so easy for her to be distracted and get rewarded for doing so (all she'd have to do would be put that nose on the ground!). Ness on the other hand has always had a bit of a show me the reward and I'll throw 110% in, if there is no visible reward then she will weigh up whether she is going to perform or not. I will always utilise Daisy's food drive so there will always be food involved with our training but on the other hand, I did a fair bit of work to start with so that she would turn on to my command word rather than turn on to the sight or smell of food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Yep it is frustrating but we are getting there and there is no great rush. I honestly believe her drive will be enough in the end to overcome her nerves and while I might lose out in the end performance due to her nerves I don't believe it will kill her performance career entirely. She has come a long way from where she was this time last year when I was considering not even wasting my time and just letting her live her life as a pet without any additional burdens. Hard though because she truly loves her work - whatever work that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 She's hilarious huski - you gotta love a Beagle's whoo whoo whoo whoo! Thanks for the vid - yep makes sense - so you get her to chase your hand, cease when she is really trying hard and then ask for something and then reward - is that about right? DD also had an excellent point about teaching your dog self-control and then asking for the opposite in training. Yeah the wooo wooo woo is quite distinct, isn't it To start with I would just get her to chase the food (throwing her food as you would let a prey driven dog 'capture' a toy). Then once she was building drive reliably we were able to add commands when she was really driving for it. We're at a point in our training now where I don't need to 'spin' her to get her in drive so we don't use it much at all anymore but it was an awesome way to build her drive and focus, I am so glad we went down that route. Her focus is great now and she'll work just about any where, even when it's hot (it would have hit over thirty degrees at the K9 Force workshop on Friday and she was still SO keen to work ) which was a big thing for us because she's was so driven by her nose and hates (hated) hot weather. We've always used food in training but it's how I was using it that changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Thanks! Throwing food is great for Zig but it just isn't enough to sustain motivation so I think this is a nice progression for him. Funniest thing, though - he started going really nuts for the tug toy when my foster failure kitten started raiding his training bag and buggering off with all his toys - damn, wish I could bring a one-eyed tabby cat to trials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Thanks! Throwing food is great for Zig but it just isn't enough to sustain motivation so I think this is a nice progression for him. Funniest thing, though - he started going really nuts for the tug toy when my foster failure kitten started raiding his training bag and buggering off with all his toys - damn, wish I could bring a one-eyed tabby cat to trials Daisy quite likes to tug (not as much as she likes food though) but she especially goes nuts over toys when Micha is playing with his :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 OK a question to those who use prey drive and other drive training. My dogs would do anything for food (and I openly admit that I wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever doing food refusal) - but if I am to rev them up with food like you all seem to be doing eg getting them to chase food in your hand etc then I would get very untidy over the top performance which I would continually be correcting or giving NRM for. Although this over the top behaviour is a dream to work with - it is not going to get a 200. So how would you deal with this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I have to agree with TSD - I think we are all getting something out of this discussion - it great to be able to share points of view without it getting into a bun fight. I still believe that everybody has something to offer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) Not sure I can answer that in relation to food - I'd love to be pulling a messy OTT reliable performance with Ness. I do think though that with Kenzie that is sort of what I was meaning in response to huski. When she gets it together fingers crossed that the nerves are enough to temper the OTT behavior so it balances out at a slightly less driven but more accurate performance. Failing that I'll just have to find warm places to trial in . Sorry didn't answer anything really. And I am sure Ptolomy you could teach food refusal if you had to I have seen Scoota work with a full bowl of food in his pile of articles and not miss a beat . Gloves are just more fun to teach. Edited November 25, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 OK a question to those who use prey drive and other drive training. My dogs would do anything for food (and I openly admit that I wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever doing food refusal) - but if I am to rev them up with food like you all seem to be doing eg getting them to chase food in your hand etc then I would get very untidy over the top performance which I would continually be correcting or giving NRM for. Although this over the top behaviour is a dream to work with - it is not going to get a 200. So how would you deal with this??? I"m not an expert in drive training by any means, but I will attempt to answer. (I had a slightly messy OT dog in the trial last night like you describe, but knew it was a proofing issue, and not a fault in the method.) (192) The aim of the game is not to get an over the top, messy performance, and if your dog fully understands the rules of the "out", and in control of himself, then there should be no more issue than any other training methods. Like food usage, you can alter the levels of drive building etc in your training, to get a level that you can work with. Some of Melbournes most successful trialling dogs at the top levels have been trained using the method, so its achievable. Was speaking to a number of people at the trial last night that have now trained their dogs using it, some having dogs that have featured in past "Obedience Dog of the Year" comps. I guess you only have to look at the Schutz footage of guys like Balabanov, who peddle their methods via results in trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 (edited) I am no expert either, but like DD I have seen a few dogs trained in drive like this that are excellent obedience dogs with loads of self control. Building that self control is a part of training in drive. Daisy needs to be TID otherwise the urge to scent takes over and I would get zero reliable focus - her instinct and drive to scent is so strong. Now I can take her out just about anywhere, at any time, and get her focusing on me and she's so excited and keen to work - what smells on the ground are just not as interesting when you're TID! We won't be trialling til the new year so I can't answer your question from my own experiences bar what I've experienced in training, I am really looking forward to seeing how Daisy goes in the trial ring Edited November 25, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hmmm huski honestly I am yet to find Kenzie's but then she is a working breed so maybe its not as likely. She has other issues that impact on her ability to work in certain situations but its not about her not wanting to work its because her nerves shut down her ability to work. That is different in my book. She certainly isn't assessing whether there is a reward on offer in that circumstance.Ness on the other hand has always had a bit of a show me the reward and I'll throw 110% in, if there is no visible reward then she will weigh up whether she is going to perform or not. Hey Ness - I have nerve issues too with Ella, she is incredibly fear aggressive and very reactive but I can work her in the middle of a class full of other dogs and have her not bat an eyelash. She also used to be very very people friendly in that there was no way I would ever get a stand for exam without a foot moving! By building drive and getting her to work in drive she doesn't conciously notice everything and one around her, she switches off all those stimuli in her head and focusses on me the one thing that will give her drive satisfaction (ie in this case her tug). In your case with Kenzie being a bit of a soft dog I would really recommend have a play around with drive work (prey or food) because by having her working in a high state or drive it would mask/hide her nerve issues! OK a question to those who use prey drive and other drive training. My dogs would do anything for food (and I openly admit that I wouldn't have a hope in hell of ever doing food refusal) - but if I am to rev them up with food like you all seem to be doing eg getting them to chase food in your hand etc then I would get very untidy over the top performance which I would continually be correcting or giving NRM for. Although this over the top behaviour is a dream to work with - it is not going to get a 200. So how would you deal with this??? Ptolomy you've seen my dog work right? She is in drive the whole way through an obedience run out. It used to be messier than it is, but what it boils down to is you shape the dog to perform what you want and how you want it while in drive - no different to how you would out of drive. The dog simply learns that to achieve drive satisfaction (their toy or food reward) it must do what you want. It's about teaching the dog to focus on what you want and control itself and it's drive to maintain that focus. I still use NRMs in training to let her know that she's not quite got what I want and I use yes to mark the right behaviour. It's gradually getting better and I know the 200 is only just around the corner for us with a dog who works in a very high state of drive. Does that kind of answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Ptolomy you've seen my dog work right? She is in drive the whole way through an obedience run out. It used to be messier than it is, but what it boils down to is you shape the dog to perform what you want and how you want it while in drive - no different to how you would out of drive. The dog simply learns that to achieve drive satisfaction (their toy or food reward) it must do what you want. It's about teaching the dog to focus on what you want and control itself and it's drive to maintain that focus. I still use NRMs in training to let her know that she's not quite got what I want and I use yes to mark the right behaviour. It's gradually getting better and I know the 200 is only just around the corner for us with a dog who works in a very high state of drive. Does that kind of answer your question? Good answer Seita! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Seita - Kenzie is complicated yes she is soft but she can also be a seriously brat demon and a half. I was surprised that even when she was super stressed the other day having to perform her routines in front of a TV camera I still copped a bite or two and no not out of stress but because she was feral once she figured out they weren't going to hurt her and she could still function. I do believe this is in part why I have been able to get a SFE on her - something which I never thought possible. Kenzie is definitely prey driven unless she is spooked and then all she will take from me is food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Not sure that really answers the question but I knew when I got Kenzie that I didn't want a dog that had a whats in it for me attitude and I wanted the behaviors themselves to become self reinforcing so I spent lots of time when she was little building the attitude I wanted . Ness what kinds of things (training, games etc.) did you use to build this attitude as a pup? Ness on the other hand has always had a bit of a show me the reward and I'll throw 110% in, if there is no visible reward then she will weigh up whether she is going to perform or not. Mmm my first dog is exactly this!!! What kinds of things have you tried to get the performance irrespective of the reward being visible or not and have they worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 Train most Sat's and I try to train at least once during the week but now daylight savings is here I will be able to get out after work more often. I have to be honest and say that training twice a week is not enough to get the sort of work I am looking for. Is there any way you can get up 5 minutes earlier and 5 do minutes of indoor training before you go to work - working on things like linning up and multiple rewarding when you get a good one, straight presents and finishes, COP, hand touches, you can even play games like find a teddy in the house. My kids all love these 5 minutes sessions, and the first at the gate at the moment is baby Cider. There is no way she is missing out What do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Kiesha - what I did with Kenzie was spend lots of sessions just playing. Whenever I would take her somewhere I would whip out a tug or a ball and we would have a game or a short training session. It became very much a case of lead was off - game would start. Here is one example of her tagging along to a trial and doing some training. Now we go somewhere new and she bounces at me waiting to do something rather then head off sniffing like her bigger sister. I also made it worth her while to want to be interested in what I was doing. If she got to distracted then I'd race off and encourage her to chase me. I didn't do everything that I wished in that regard and I probably should have driven to more places and spent 5 minutes playing and then loaded her up in the car and gone somewhere new and repeated. I also often would take her out the front without any rewards and we would just have a game and I'd throw in a couple of tricks which in themselves have become self reinforcing. Things like having her run through my legs are all one big game for her and she never gives it a second thought. I will now throw these types of tricks in when we are playing games so she doesn't realize what is game and what is work. As for what I have tried with Ness. I have tried having containers of food stashed around but also playing the 2 food game with her as a reward. I guess honestly I haven't done as much as I should have. As for Ptolomy's post - yep I would agree training twice a week isn't enough and I should really do more 5 minute sessions . Although to be fair I guess I do throw in more 5 minute sessions in the middle of a game with Kenzie but don't do as many with Ness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Thanks Ness - good suggestions. Geez that video did make me puppy clucky though. She sure is a cutie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 What do others think? Same. To break each exercise up into little peices, you need many short training sessions. One night I might just work on turns, ....the next I will just work on recall and retrieve speed, and other nights I will just pick one part of an exercise that is her weakest.etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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