ness Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Yeah it was expected just not appreciated with Kenzie - she might have been ok but I didn't want her having a break down over it . It was also HTM not freestyle - think she would have been bullet proof with the freestyle. But I guess what annoyed me a bit was the fact the judge had noticed in the morning how scardy she was (she was commentating the morning) but seemed to think Kenzie was over it by the afternoon whereas I was on edge the entire time. Edited December 19, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 If you think your dog is pretty good at the start peg here's a small exercise to try. Without food in your hand, heel up to a start peg, remove your lead and hand it to your 'judge'. Has your dog taken its attention off you yet? Ok so I tried this in one of our training sessions today. I lined Daisy up with no food on me, handed her leash over and didn't say a word... she looked up at me for 50 seconds before moving slightly (but returned eye contact to me). Am going to try this with someone talking to us and patting her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiggy Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Talking about training here not competing!!!!! Although I have had lots of Judges start chit chatting at the start peg though and have found its something we need to train for. Years ago I did have a judge try to pat my kelpie so she of course jumped up and broke her lanyard with her stop watch!!! Not a great start!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Good start huski Remember no food at this point as you are testing. If she loses attention if someone starts talking or patting her you know what you need to train. If she loses attention then set it up again but be in training mode and be ready to mark and treat her while she is paying attention and before she loses it. No need to move off as yet, repeat multiple times. Look at it as an exercise on its own before you start heeling off. If you think your dog is pretty good at the start peg here's a small exercise to try. Without food in your hand, heel up to a start peg, remove your lead and hand it to your 'judge'. Has your dog taken its attention off you yet? Ok so I tried this in one of our training sessions today. I lined Daisy up with no food on me, handed her leash over and didn't say a word... she looked up at me for 50 seconds before moving slightly (but returned eye contact to me). Am going to try this with someone talking to us and patting her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Good start huski Remember no food at this point as you are testing. If she loses attention if someone starts talking or patting her you know what you need to train. If she loses attention then set it up again but be in training mode and be ready to mark and treat her while she is paying attention and before she loses it. No need to move off as yet, repeat multiple times. Look at it as an exercise on its own before you start heeling off. Yep, I had no food on me The problem I have isn't that she loses focus, but after a certain amount of time she starts to wonder if she's got it right so she'll start to offer behaviours i.e. a stand, a down, occasionally barking at me as if to say 'come on, what are we doing??' So for us it's a matter of extending the time she can stay still without getting bored/frustrated! If anyone approaches us when we are training (happens quite a bit when we train at the public park, lol) I always put Daisy in heel position while I chat with the person. The other day our neighbours kid came out to chat while we were training and Daisy didn't look twice at him while we were talking ;) need to practice it in a more trial like setting though!! ETA: I have a heap of friends/family coming over tomorrow for a party, is it a bit sad to think it's a perfect training opportunity?? LOL!! Edited December 19, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I would only be asking for 30 seconds of absolute attention at this stage. If she consistently gives you that then try with the judge patting etc. If she's good there then tell the judge you are ready and take 2 or 3 steps at heel. If she gives you absolute attention and you haven't lured or bribed her at all then pay out big time Not as easy as it sounds. Caffy is really good at breaking start peg attention although Ptolomy is pretty skilled at it too Good start huski Remember no food at this point as you are testing. If she loses attention if someone starts talking or patting her you know what you need to train. If she loses attention then set it up again but be in training mode and be ready to mark and treat her while she is paying attention and before she loses it. No need to move off as yet, repeat multiple times. Look at it as an exercise on its own before you start heeling off. Yep, I had no food on me The problem I have isn't that she loses focus, but after a certain amount of time she starts to wonder if she's got it right so she'll start to offer behaviours i.e. a stand, a down, occasionally barking at me as if to say 'come on, what are we doing??' ;) So for us it's a matter of extending the time she can stay still without getting bored/frustrated! If anyone approaches us when we are training (happens quite a bit when we train at the public park, lol) I always put Daisy in heel position while I chat with the person. The other day our neighbours kid came out to chat while we were training and Daisy didn't look twice at him while we were talking need to practice it in a more trial like setting though!! ETA: I have a heap of friends/family coming over tomorrow for a party, is it a bit sad to think it's a perfect training opportunity?? LOL!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I would only be asking for 30 seconds of absolute attention at this stage. If she consistently gives you that then try with the judge patting etc. If she's good there then tell the judge you are ready and take 2 or 3 steps at heel. If she gives you absolute attention and you haven't lured or bribed her at all then pay out big time Not as easy as it sounds. Caffy is really good at breaking start peg attention although Ptolomy is pretty skilled at it too Thanks Bedazzled, will give this a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Ok I just tried a frisbee on a figure 8 post/start peg and interesting she could cope with the frisbee on the top of the start peg without acknowledging it but when I had it alongside the same cone and we were heeling around it it caused a few more issues which needed to be worked through. One question would you ever use the distraction as the reward or do you find it better to reward with something other than what is being used as the "distraction". I was clicking and then letting her take the frisbee off the cone as her reward but giving her her go and get it cue. Edited December 19, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Mix it up and keep her guessing Sometimes reward her from you (either toy, food or play) and sometimes use the distracter. Whatever you do make sure you give a clear marker and release to the distractor. When I throw food or toy I always say in an exited tone 'get it, get it, get it' which gives him clear permission and drive to the toy or food. Ok I just tried a frisbee on a figure 8 post/start peg and interesting she could cope with the frisbee on the top of the start peg without acknowledging it but when I had it alongside the same cone and we were heeling around it it caused a few more issues which needed to be worked through. One question would you ever use the distraction as the reward or do you find it better to reward with something other than what is being used as the "distraction". I was clicking and then letting her take the frisbee off the cone as her reward but giving her her go and get it cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Yep when I was releasing to the item I was using as a distraction I was verbally encouraging her to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) HMm I don't think I would be releasing a baby/inexperienced dog to a distractor and definitely not a novice toller as they have a habit of self releasing I want them to learn that all good/fun things come from me. Edited December 19, 2009 by Ptolomy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Hmmm what about a novice black and white dog . I am not sure if it makes a difference but when I release Kenzie to whatever toy I am using then she immediately grabs the toy throws herself with the toy in her mouth back at me ready to play. Sort of it takes 2 to tango - just having the toy doesn't make it a reward its only what we do with the toy. Edited December 19, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) In drive training when we are working with a prey item we release the dog to the toy, the dog will then bring it back to tug with you, making you part of the reward. I will release Daisy to her food reward when we start trialling too. But it's not a distraction per se as it's the same toy/food as you would use in each training session. I wouldn't release Daisy to a distraction like another dog or person as a reward. Edited December 19, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Sorry to be a bit dense. Huski you mentioned 'in drive training'? Is this relating to a particular training program? I would have thought that all training is in drive. I certainly wouldn't be trying to engage a disinterested dog in any type of learning activity so I just a bit confused by the terminology I agree I would only release to a toy or food. In drive training when we are working with a prey item we release the dog to the toy, the dog will then bring it back to tug with you, making you part of the reward. I will release Daisy to her food reward when we start trialling too. But it's not a distraction per se as it's the same toy/food as you would use in each training session. I wouldn't release Daisy to a distraction like another dog or person as a reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 (edited) Sorry to be a bit dense. Huski you mentioned 'in drive training'? Is this relating to a particular training program? I would have thought that all training is in drive. I certainly wouldn't be trying to engage a disinterested dog in any type of learning activity so I just a bit confused by the terminology I agree I would only release to a toy or food. Not relating to a particular training program (although I do a training in drive distance package with K9 Force) just those who train their dogs in drive. Whilst it would depend on your definition of and understanding of drive, I wouldn't personally say that all training is in drive. Just as I wouldn't agree that all interested dogs are working in drive. You can see this when you go to a trial or training class - you can spot the dogs who whilst not disinterested, are going through the motions vs a dog who is working in drive. I can see this really clearly with Daisy - the difference in her now vs before we started training in drive is huge. It wasn't that she was disinterested in training before, but I never had the focus, responsiveness or reliability that I do now. Being a scent hound, her instinct to scent is huge, but when she's working in drive she doesn't even think about the smells on the ground. As an example - I might give Daisy a basic command at home like leave or sit or stay or whatever. She's not disinterested because she complies and she knows she will get a pat and some praise - but she's not responding to my command in drive, like she would do if I'd give our trigger word (ready to work?) to work in food drive. She doesn't comply with the same fast, sharp and focused response she'd give me when we are training in drive. That probably made no sense, and apologies for taking the thread further OT Edited December 19, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Sorry to be a bit dense. Huski you mentioned 'in drive training'? Is this relating to a particular training program? I would have thought that all training is in drive. I certainly wouldn't be trying to engage a disinterested dog in any type of learning activity so I just a bit confused by the terminology I agree I would only release to a toy or food. Not relating to a particular training program (although I do a training in drive distance package with K9 Force) just those who train their dogs in drive. Whilst it would depend on your definition of and understanding of drive, I wouldn't personally say that all training is in drive. Just as I wouldn't agree that all interested dogs are working in drive. You can see this when you go to a trial or training class - you can spot the dogs who whilst not disinterested, are going through the motions vs a dog who is working in drive. I can see this really clearly with Daisy - the difference in her now vs before we started training in drive is huge. It wasn't that she was disinterested in training before, but I never had the focus, responsiveness or reliability that I do now. Being a scent hound, her instinct to scent is huge, but when she's working in drive she doesn't even think about the smells on the ground. As an example - I might give Daisy a basic command at home like leave or sit or stay or whatever. She's not disinterested because she complies and she knows she will get a pat and some praise - but she's not responding to my command in drive, like she would do if I'd give our trigger word (ready to work?) to work in food drive. She doesn't comply with the same fast, sharp and focused response she'd give me when we are training in drive. That probably made no sense, and apologies for taking the thread further OT :D Thanks for the explanation Huski Now I will throw something at you - yes we all want out dogs working in drive BUT when my dog isn't pushing he is in a much better heel position, is neater in all his exercises, his presents are spot on and always gets a higher score and yet to me I hate it I think Bedazzled can relate...... So which would everybody rather - a dog that is zupped up to the max and is super fun to work, but who you know you are going to get a lower score with, or the accurate less zupped up one????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the explanation Huski Now I will throw something at you - yes we all want out dogs working in drive BUT when my dog isn't pushing he is in a much better heel position, is neater in all his exercises, his presents are spot on and always gets a higher score and yet to me I hate it I think Bedazzled can relate...... So which would everybody rather - a dog that is zupped up to the max and is super fun to work, but who you know you are going to get a lower score with, or the accurate less zupped up one????? Well, neither if you can There's no reason why a dog working in drive can't have excellent accuracy. You just have to look at Seita's dog Ella whose highest score in Open from memory is 196 to see an example of a dog who can work in drive AND be accurate ETA: For me I like working Daisy in drive as I see no other option for her - if she wasn't in drive, there's no way I could guarantee I could keep her nose off the ground. Edited December 20, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well, neither if you can There's no reason why a dog working in drive can't have excellent accuracy. You just have to look at Seita's dog Ella whose highest score in Open from memory is 196 to see an example of a dog who can work in drive AND be accurate ETA: For me I like working Daisy in drive as I see no other option for her - if she wasn't in drive, there's no way I could guarantee I could keep her nose off the ground. I agree about a dog having drive AND being accurate Huski and Yes Seita's dog is an example as I have had the pleasure of seeing her work. Now I wonder if Drive means something different to all of us?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Ptolomy thats exactly what I am going through with Kenzie - if she is really fired up and pushing she crabs if she is slightly less drivey then she is in perfect position. Although if you look at some of the UK videos where the dogs seem to be drivy and yet do hold a perfect position it does seem possible. And yes I do think drive is different for different people - I just have feral at the moment . Edited December 20, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 It probably does Ptolomy for me drive is a state of mind, I like to see Daisy full of energy and bouncing around dying to work. I have found proofing her so easy when we are training in drive because if she's working well in drive she doesn't even notice what's going on around her. I also think of it in terms of harnessing the drive she already has, if I can take that sheer focus she gives to scenting and turn it into something I can use in obedience it makes it even more rewarding for her. A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward as well as food/prey reward. It makes her pretty keen to work just about any time. We're not quite there yet so I don't have quite the reliability that say Seita does with Ella but we'll get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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