Couple Using Halti's On Thier 2 Malamutes

[huski]

I personally don't get it when I see people at obedience using head collars - if you want to trial, you can't have your dog wearing one in the ring, so at some point you will have to train the dog to work without it.

You can get through quite a few months of training sometimes before someone tells you that.

I've seen people at my club make it all the way into a trialling class before they learned that halti's aren't permitted in the trialling ring.

And by then they basically have to start from scratch all over again!

Edited March 22, 2010 by huski

[Longcoat]

My trainer recommended me to use a halti? I brought one last week and tend to use it today. I will be however teaching him to walk loose lead. I don't see the problem if people choose to use it temporaryly. I agree with everyones points but I tend to agree that it depends on the dog and owner.

"It depends on the dog and owner" is where things go wrong. If the owner has a pulling dog as someone else has mentioned with a disability or some extreme case, yes a head collar may be the best for that person to walk their dog, I agree. But there are no "halti" dogs or any dog that can't be trained to walk on a collar and loose leash either by positive reinforcement or aversive correction or combination of both methods, either way any dog will learn what is required.

If the dog is not responding to learn a loose leash walk, there is either a handler problem or a wrong training method that needs to be addressed. The suggestion of a head collar to correct the problem especially to a novice owner, is very poor advice IMO.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Longcoat

[Red Fox]

I agree with Huski.

I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see

I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face. I'd rather use a prong or martingale that (as Longcoat said) is only a short sharp correction than a constant aversive.

There's only pressure on the dogs muzzle if they pull against the leash! Otherwise the noose is loose and they are free to pant, bark, etc. If my dog were to keep pulling in a halti I would NOT keep using one and it would be an indicator that it's the wrong tool for that particular dog.

Yes but that's my point Shelle. If the dog doesn't pull in it at all then why do they even need it?

And if the dog doesn't pull in the head collar but then then pulls when you remove it and use a flat collar, then obviously the head collar is contantly aversive to the dog when he/she is wearing it and that is what's causing the change in behaviour.

Anyhow, this is not to say that I think that you or anyone else is 'wrong' or a 'bad owner' for choosing to use a head collar on your dog (as in your case you are quite obviously a responsible owner with a happy, healthy dog ). But I do think that there are better options out there. JMO

[Longcoat]

I personally don't get it when I see people at obedience using head collars - if you want to trial, you can't have your dog wearing one in the ring, so at some point you will have to train the dog to work without it.

You can get through quite a few months of training sometimes before someone tells you that.

I've seen people at my club make it all the way into a trialling class before they learned that halti's aren't permitted in the trialling ring.

And by then they basically have to start from scratch all over again!

And what a waste of time having trained the wrong way if you decide to trial your dog We often have people arrive at our club with prong collars which are not permitted either and the handlers argue that their dog is prong trained and should be allowed. But the point is, I have never seen a dog yet that pulled and misbehaved with the prong removed do so for more than two training nights. All the prong trained dogs, easily learned to behave on a fixed collar perfectly

Edited March 22, 2010 by Longcoat

[Longcoat]

I agree with Huski.

I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see

I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face. I'd rather use a prong or martingale that (as Longcoat said) is only a short sharp correction than a constant aversive.

There's only pressure on the dogs muzzle if they pull against the leash! Otherwise the noose is loose and they are free to pant, bark, etc. If my dog were to keep pulling in a halti I would NOT keep using one and it would be an indicator that it's the wrong tool for that particular dog.

Yes but that's my point Shelle. If the dog doesn't pull in it at all then why do they even need it?

And if the dog doesn't pull in the head collar but then then pulls when you remove it and use a flat collar, then obviously the head collar is contantly aversive to the dog when he/she is wearing it and that is what's causing the change in behaviour.

Anyhow, this is not to say that I think that you or anyone else is 'wrong' or a 'bad owner' for choosing to use a head collar on your dog (as in your case you are quite obviously a responsible owner with a happy, healthy dog ). But I do think that there are better options out there. JMO

That's a very good explanation, very true

[all that glitters]

I agree with Huski.

I had an obedience instructor put a head collar on my dog at 4 or 5 months old and watched him shut down completely. And when I say 'shut down' I mean he went from being a happy pulling puppy to a dog that would not move nor even look at me. Ears down, tail between his legs, it was awful to see

I do believe that it can be painful for a dog to have that kind of pressure on it's face. I'd rather use a prong or martingale that (as Longcoat said) is only a short sharp correction than a constant aversive.

There's only pressure on the dogs muzzle if they pull against the leash! Otherwise the noose is loose and they are free to pant, bark, etc. If my dog were to keep pulling in a halti I would NOT keep using one and it would be an indicator that it's the wrong tool for that particular dog.

Yes but that's my point Shelle.If the dog doesn't pull in it at all then why do they even need it?

And if the dog doesn't pull in the head collar but then then pulls when you remove it and use a flat collar, then obviously the head collar is contantly aversive to the dog when he/she is wearing it and that is what's causing the change in behaviour.

Anyhow, this is not to say that I think that you or anyone else is 'wrong' or a 'bad owner' for choosing to use a head collar on your dog (as in your case you are quite obviously a responsible owner with a happy, healthy dog ). But I do think that there are better options out there. JMO

I think the dog doesn't pull with the headcollar on because it's tried in the past, it's head gets turned side ways which hinders it's pulling/walking and so it learns quicker to not pull! Where as with a check chain they can still pull forwards and I reckon half the time they get used to the check chain tightness. I just can't see what could be so off putting about a head collar on a dog when it's not being pulled... it clips around behind the ears like a snug collar (not bad), there's a nose band that sits over the nose and is loose and doesn't stop the dog panting, barking, yawning etc. So unless there is tension on the leash, that's all there is! UNLESS someone doesn't read instructions and puts it on wrongly or does the nose band too tight etc... the nose band has to be adjusted exactly as they say.

In the scheme of things though i think if someone is using the head collar correctly and not giving their dog a negative experience and they both enjoy their walks together then its a good thing I think there's plenty worse you could do to a dog! My shepherd is so spoilt it's not funny, she has half a dozen couches to sleep on, never left outside, indoors and warm like a queen, high quality food and meaty bones, lots of loving and games with her human-parents, has a mum who worries night and day about her, only alone 1-2 days a week, plenty of belly rubs and visits outside the house for stimulation, a doting grandmother who looks after her when we can't, at LEAST one half hour walk a day + training and stimulation activities, daily massaging brushes, and she's walked in a head collar *oh nooooooooo!* haha but you know it's not a negative thing for her she LOVES walks and literally puts her nose in the loop.. so if my girl is happy thats all that matters, if she hated the headcollar or comes to hate it I will stop using it immediately!

Edited March 22, 2010 by ~ShelleAndShyla~

[Longcoat]

'~ShelleAndShyla~' date='22nd Mar 2010 - 10:45 PM' post='4410571']

In the scheme of things though i think if someone is using the head collar correctly and not giving their dog a negative experience and they both enjoy their walks together then its a good thing I think there's plenty worse you could do to a dog! My shepherd is so spoilt it's not funny, she has half a dozen couches to sleep on, never left outside, indoors and warm like a queen, high quality food and meaty bones, lots of loving and games with her human-parents, has a mum who worries night and day about her, only alone 1-2 days a week, plenty of belly rubs and visits outside the house for stimulation, a doting grandmother who looks after her when we can't, at LEAST one half hour walk a day + training and stimulation activities, daily massaging brushes, and she's walked in a head collar *oh nooooooooo!* haha but you know it's not a negative thing for her she LOVES walks and literally puts her nose in the loop.. so if my girl is happy thats all that matters, if she hated the headcollar or comes to hate it I will stop using it immediately!

Shelle, what you are not accepting is that when the dog improves it's behaviour like Shyla does wearing a head collar, the reason the behaviour improves is because the head collar is aversive. To test that, tie a ribbon loosely on her tail instead and see if she walks on a loose leash???. It's not because she wears something that improves the behaviour, it's the aversion from what is worn that changes the behaviour. My boy went nuts when the prong collar came out.........wow walkies but he also copped some corrections from it too. I could say by his reaction getting the prong out of cupboard that he loved his prong, but he hated it's corrective action being the reason he behaved himself

For what it's worth, I know damn well like many others involved in this thread that we could easily train Shyla to walk perfectly on a loose leash without a head collar which is frustrating to see people using equipment that isn't necessary and knowing that it's use will compromise further training potential. Once you master leash obedience on an ordinary collar, any other training activity will be so much easier

Edited March 22, 2010 by Longcoat

[poodlefan]

I think the dog doesn't pull with the headcollar on because it's tried in the past, it's head gets turned side ways which hinders it's pulling/walking and so it learns quicker to not pull! Where as with a check chain they can still pull forwards and I reckon half the time they get used to the check chain tightness. I just can't see what could be so off putting about a head collar on a dog when it's not being pulled... it clips around behind the ears like a snug collar (not bad), there's a nose band that sits over the nose and is loose and doesn't stop the dog panting, barking, yawning etc. So unless there is tension on the leash, that's all there is! UNLESS someone doesn't read instructions and puts it on wrongly or does the nose band too tight etc... the nose band has to be adjusted exactly as they say.

It's the tightness of the nose band and the pressure it places on the dogs sensitive muzzle that causes discomfort and, in many cases, knocks the dog out of drive. It's the lack of drive that stops the pulling in many cases. I've seen halti's fitted so that they're actually placing pressure on the dogs lower eyelids.

Can you fit a hand or several fingers between the nose band and your dog's muzzle? That's how loose halters are worn on horses. They are not fitted 'snugly'.

Where that noseband sits on a dog is one of the most sensitive areas of its head. The head piece keeps that pressure constant.

Mind you, I've seen dogs fitted with haltis haul their owners down the street. I shudder to think what's happening to them chiropractically.

Edited March 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[poodlemum]

Getting back on topic (as this thread seems to have attracted more than it's fair share of loonies ), as a former Obedience instructor, I always felt that the Halti was the lazy option - for people who really couldn't be bothered actually TRAINING their dog!

This comment was not only based on my instructing experience. My SIL got a puppy from me about 6 years ago. I think they took Jazz to obedience a few times, discovered she was bouncy and hard to manage (as Standard puppies can be ) and, instead of perservering, got a Halti (on the advice of an instuctor ) and just proceeded to drag the poor girl around by it. Jazz is now nearly 7 and still bouncy and untrained, so she lives outside

[shapeshifter]

Don't know if anyone else has said it but a Halti on a Malamute/Husky is just so dangerous, a husky breeder once told me that due to their coats they don't expend heat like other dogs and the primary way is through their mouths when they pant, a Halti doesn't allow them to pant enough or at all in some cases.

[poodlefan]

Don't know if anyone else has said it but a Halti on a Malamute/Husky is just so dangerous, a husky breeder once told me that due to their coats they don't expend heat like other dogs and the primary way is through their mouths when they pant, a Halti doesn't allow them to pant enough or at all in some cases.

A well fitted halti doesn't restrict panting.

[gsdog2]

Don't know if anyone else has said it but a Halti on a Malamute/Husky is just so dangerous, a husky breeder once told me that due to their coats they don't expend heat like other dogs and the primary way is through their mouths when they pant, a Halti doesn't allow them to pant enough or at all in some cases.

A well fitted halti doesn't restrict panting.

You're not confusing a "halti" with a muzzle are you? Muzzle's will restrict panting and that's a problem for all breeds, a "halti" as poodlefan's aready pointed out, shouldn't restrict panting