Border Collie Red Genetics

[blondeborder]

Hi, I have a litter planned with my red (blonde) border collie. The father is black and white but had 2 red pups in his litter. Gypsy ( my girl ) was the only red pup from black and white parents. As I understant the male has a 50/50 chance of being a carrier of the e gene. And Gypsy is ee. So... if he is a carrier does that give a 50/50 chance of reds? Always seems to be less in the llitters I've seen in real life. Any more info is appreciated.

Edited October 24, 2010 by blondeborder

[dancinbcs]

The sire has a 50% chance of carrying red. If he does carry it each puppy has a 50% chance of being red. If he does not carry the red gene, none of the puppies will be red. There are also plenty of other recessive colours that both could be carrying so don't be surprised if you get colours other than black or red. Some reds actually have a pigment colour other than black so are genetically that colour with a red coat. Also tri markings don't show on a red so they can be genetically tri as well. Red is a masking gene and only affects the coat, not the pigment and a few reds are actually genetically sable not ee red, just to confuse the issue.

Looking at the pedigree with someone who knows the lines well would give you an indication of likely colours.

Edited to add: I hope both parents have all their health testing done ie. 3 x DNA tests, hips and elbows.

Edited October 24, 2010 by dancinbcs

[AmandaJ]

I am REALLY sorry about this - but - if you don't know what the colour permutations are for the breeding you are planning then you should not be doing it!

[Borderpower]

I am REALLY sorry about this - but - if you don't know what the colour permutations are for the breeding you are planning then you should not be doing it!

I second this, whitch is why I didnt bother applying to this thread! :D

[dancinbcs]

I am REALLY sorry about this - but - if you don't know what the colour permutations are for the breeding you are planning then you should not be doing it!

I agree, but at least she is breeding to a black, which is the safest way with colours in Borders. You won't muck things up too much if you always breed back to black, no matter what colour you start with. If in doubt always just breed to a black. The best quality coloured dogs usually have at least one, if not two black parents. Breeding colour to colour leads to a sharp drop in quality.

It is the idiots that combine different colours other than black, with no idea of the consequences that end up problems in our breed. At the moment we have some breeding red to merle which is just plain stupid as the merle won't show on the red and there will end up being merle to merle matings done unintentionally with future generations.

Colours in BCs are quite complicated and many experienced breeders still do not understand them. This is why we have a standard that makes no sense colour wise. Not enough breeders understand enough about the genetics to agree to fix the standard. Even with the best understanding, surprise colours will still turn up unless everyone goes to the expense of DNA testing for colour.

[blondeborder]

I am REALLY sorry about this - but - if you don't know what the colour permutations are for the breeding you are planning then you should not be doing it!

Thanks:( There can be a lot be learned from peoples personal experience above and beyond what I've read in books. I know quite a bit about the ee gene. Was hoping for a decent convo. with likeminded people, thought that was what a forum was all about, not for you to decide who should and should'nt be breeding.

[WreckitWhippet]

just out of interest are you a registered breeder ?

[blondeborder]

just out of interest are you a registered breeder ?

[/quot

No. I live on a farm, my dog is not from a registered breeder as with most border collies who live the farm life! She's beaut at rounding up sheep, but I don't think she'd be interested in the show ring!

Edited October 24, 2010 by blondeborder

[WreckitWhippet]

Is there no working dog registry ?

[lappiemum]

Hey Blondeborder-

If you are on a working farm and your girl is from a working line, I assume that you are looking to breed for working attributes rather than colour, and that your question is just more out of interest? If so, I'm sure there is a mountain of info out there on it - you may also want to contact some of the working line BC breeders and talk to them, its always good to have a mentor (or two) in the breed to ask questions like this.

Good luck with your girl.

[dancinbcs]

just out of interest are you a registered breeder ?

No. I live on a farm, my dog is not from a registered breeder as with most border collies who live the farm life! She's beaut at rounding up sheep, but I don't think she'd be interested in the show ring!

From a working perspective. Most farmers don't like the light coloured dogs as they don't believe the sheep have as much respect for them so if you are breeding just for work I would be breeding away from the red, especially a pale red. I know they can still work but mostly white and pale colours are not prefered from a work point of view. With unregistered dogs you could have any colours lurking so apart from what I wrote earlier about percentages, anything is possible.

If you are breeding Border Collies, registered or not, keep in mind that your girl and her mate should at the very least be DNA tested for the two hereditary fatal conditions, CL and TNS to avoid possible legal problems later. It is law in Vic but no matter what state, if you breed an affected dog, now testing is available to prevent it, you could be sued. The testing is available at Uni of NSW. At least one parent must be DNA normal for each condition to avoid breeding puppies that could die between 2-8 months for TNS and 18-24 months for CL. The only cases that now occur in Australia are from unregistered Borders because the breeders don't bother to test like the registered ones do. The genes for both CL and TNS are throughout the breed and it doesn't matter if they are show or work lines, the risk is the same if you don't test to make sure you are not putting two carriers together.

[WreckitWhippet]

Dancin, a quick question on the DNA testing. Is CEA testing done routinely along with the CL and TNS ?

[Janba]

Dancin, a quick question on the DNA testing. Is CEA testing done routinely along with the CL and TNS ?

Yes. BCs should be tested for CEA, CL, TNS and hips and elbows.

The results of the recent ANKC beed survey after 1/1/2011 all breeding stock born after 1/1/2005 muust be tested and at least 1 parent in each litter registered must be CEA normal (either by DNA or parentage).

[Janba]

just out of interest are you a registered breeder ?

No. I live on a farm, my dog is not from a registered breeder as with most border collies who live the farm life! She's beaut at rounding up sheep, but I don't think she'd be interested in the show ring!

From a working perspective. Most farmers don't like the light coloured dogs as they don't believe the sheep have as much respect for them so if you are breeding just for work I would be breeding away from the red, especially a pale red. I know they can still work but mostly white and pale colours are not prefered from a work point of view. With unregistered dogs you could have any colours lurking so apart from what I wrote earlier about percentages, anything is possible.

If you are breeding Border Collies, registered or not, keep in mind that your girl and her mate should at the very least be DNA tested for the two hereditary fatal conditions, CL and TNS to avoid possible legal problems later. It is law in Vic but no matter what state, if you breed an affected dog, now testing is available to prevent it, you could be sued. The testing is available at Uni of NSW. At least one parent must be DNA normal for each condition to avoid breeding puppies that could die between 2-8 months for TNS and 18-24 months for CL. The only cases that now occur in Australia are from unregistered Borders because the breeders don't bother to test like the registered ones do. The genes for both CL and TNS are throughout the breed and it doesn't matter if they are show or work lines, the risk is the same if you don't test to make sure you are not putting two carriers together.

I will add to this that if your dog that TNS is definitely in the true working border collie lines but have yet to find a case of CL. If your dog doesn't have a true working BC pedigree from your states WSD registry then there is always the chance that she has ANKC blood in her and a risk of being a CL carrier. CEA is in the working dogs. The same applies to dogs from the ISDS.

[WreckitWhippet]

Dancin, a quick question on the DNA testing. Is CEA testing done routinely along with the CL and TNS ?

Yes. BCs should be tested for CEA, CL, TNS and hips and elbows.

The results of the recent ANKC beed survey after 1/1/2011 all breeding stock born after 1/1/2005 muust be tested and at least 1 parent in each litter registered must be CEA normal (either by DNA or parentage).

Thanks, I thought the three were routinely tested for but wasn't sure if anything had changed.

[Janba]

Dancin, a quick question on the DNA testing. Is CEA testing done routinely along with the CL and TNS ?

Yes. BCs should be tested for CEA, CL, TNS and hips and elbows.

The results of the recent ANKC beed survey after 1/1/2011 all breeding stock born after 1/1/2005 muust be tested and at least 1 parent in each litter registered must be CEA normal (either by DNA or parentage).

Thanks, I thought the three were routinely tested for but wasn't sure if anything had changed.

I should have laso said from the survey the same applies for CL and TNS though their is a question over the TNS as the paper regarding the DNA test wasn't peer reviewed.

[dancinbcs]

Dancin, a quick question on the DNA testing. Is CEA testing done routinely along with the CL and TNS ?

Yes, CEA is routinely tested for in registered ANKC BCs but it is the more expensive test and very few CEA affected BCs actually have any sight defects, so testing is not as vital in an unregistered litter. It would be nice to CEA test unregistered parents of litters as well, but I really can't see it happening. From next year it will be mandatory fro ANKC registered litters.

CL and TNS testing are vital for the parents of ALL BORDER COLLIE litters, registered or not, because these conditions are 100% fatal and become an owners problem, not a breeders problem, due to ages affected.

Red is colour not seen in the ISDS working lines so the OPs red bitch has just as much chance of carrying CL as TNS.

[Janba]

Red is colour not seen in the ISDS working lines so the OPs red bitch has just as much chance of carrying CL as TNS.

The red in the ANKC lines came from the Austarlian working dogs used as foundation stock. CL hasn't been found in the working dogs yet but that doesn't mean it isn't present at a very low incidence. TNS has been found in working lines with no ANKC blood. But to be sure the dog is pure working lines you would need to know its working pedigree and make sure it has no ANKC lines in it.

[dancinbcs]

The red in the ANKC lines came from the Austarlian working dogs used as foundation stock.

That's exactly where the CL came from as well. A British imported working dog that came through NZ first and was used to establish working and eventually ANKC registered dogs about 60 years ago. CL definitely occurs in some working lines but most farmers just shoot affected dogs and don't bother with testing. Before we had a test available, I remember a working Border breeder, near where I was living, that was well known in the district for his great working dogs, except, according to the local farmers and stock agents, "so many of them go mad around 2 years and have to be shot". I am certain these mostly short coated working registered dogs had CL. They had no ANKC lines at all in them.

The red colour is believed to have come from one famous working bitch described as a "Kelpie/Border Collie", that actually looked more like a red cattle dog. She is behind all ANKC dogs and no doubt some working lines as well.

The op said her dog was unregistered from an unregistered breeder so she may well be all ANKC lines. Just because she is a handy worker, does not mean she has to come from ISDS lines. If she is an unregistered long coat she could be anything and that is why I believe the DNA testing is vital.

[asal]

I am REALLY sorry about this - but - if you don't know what the colour permutations are for the breeding you are planning then you should not be doing it!

are u serious?

so what about the breeders who put black to black and get??????????? red, gold. blue or chocolate?

same diff

are u suggesting no breedings should take place without the breeder dna testing for every possible colour?

since when was colour a defect in this breed now?

once upon a time nothing but a black or black and white pup got to live long enough to open its eyes.

even if the male carries red. every pup could be black.

just as every pup could be all males or all females

are u suggesting if you dont know the sexes dont do it either?

every mating IS, I REPEAT IS A GAMBLE.

NO matter how much you think you know.

but hey ive been breeding, pedigree mice, cavies, horses and dogs

for only 50 years or so i know nothing, compared to so many here.

from my experience ok not much, the longer your at it the more you learn, n when u stop learning ....your dead.