A Question About Two-tone Australian Kelpies

[aussielover]

Working breeders are 100% fine with whatever colour the dog is. There are plenty of solid coloured working dogs. My breeder had several when we went out there. He breeds on ability and colour doesnt come into it.

One of the posters further up mentioned that working line breeders might be breeding away from solids to distinguish from the bench Kelpies. To be honest, when I was looking for Hoover, I didn't see photos for many/any solids when looking at the websites for working line Kelpies - all were two tones, whether red and tan or black and tan.

What about show breeders focusing on solids then? There doesn't seem to have been any compromise/detriment on the basis of colour.

During my uni placements on various farms I have seen a number of working solid-coloured kelpies.

Farmers don't really care about colour and certainly not enough to puprosely select for two-tones only just to distinguish bench and working lines.

Some farmers do have strong opinions on what colours make good working dogs or what colours make bad workers, with some having opposite opinions LOL

[koalathebear]

Working breeders are 100% fine with whatever colour the dog is. There are plenty of solid coloured working dogs. My breeder had several when we went out there. He breeds on ability and colour doesnt come into it.

That's what I had been told and also what I had assumed based on what I had read at the WKC website, but in this thread there were comments that it wasn't just show breeders who were trying to 'distinguish' their dogs but also the working line breeders. I have no way of knowing what's what ...

Kavik - just saw your post about cream Kelpies. I've never seen one in person, just photos. I wonder if cream Kelpies are considered 'good' or bad. Also, I notice that white isn't part of either standard, working or bench. Does this mean that the blaze that some working line Kelpies have is in fact 'cream'? I am so bad with colours :D

Edited November 10, 2010 by koalathebear

[4Kelpies]

No the blaze, chest, toes etc. are definitely white. There is no problem with white markings with the WKC, but I do know some breeders who don't like white . It wouldn't stop them from keeping or breeding from a dog with white markings if its work was good enough.

I remember hearing of some breeders who would put down any cream pups at birth because they thought that sheep wouldn't respect light coloured dogs. (I doubt that dingoes have any problem scaring sheep.) Interestingly a few years ago a cream Kelpie called Yakka Custard sired the dog who won the Bradley Sisters Memorial Trophy for Best Type of Kelpie competing in WKC National Trials. "The trophy is awarded to the dog which possesses sound conformation and pleasing ‘Kelpie type’ appearance." (WKC website) I'm not sure of the colour of the dog who won but his sire was successful in trials and has plenty of progeny around.

Edited November 10, 2010 by 4Kelpies

[jesomil]

That's what I had been told and also what I had assumed based on what I had read at the WKC website, but in this thread there were comments that it wasn't just show breeders who were trying to 'distinguish' their dogs but also the working line breeders. I have no way of knowing what's what ...

Working line breeders are not trying to distunguish their dogs from show lines. They would never even think of them. They are simply breeding with ability and whatever colour comes up, comes up. There is no need to distinguish the two by looks. Most of the time they look different anyway but pop them on stock and there are all the differences they need.

[koalathebear]

That's what I had been told and also what I had assumed based on what I had read at the WKC website, but in this thread there were comments that it wasn't just show breeders who were trying to 'distinguish' their dogs but also the working line breeders. I have no way of knowing what's what ...

Working line breeders are not trying to distunguish their dogs from show lines. They would never even think of them. They are simply breeding with ability and whatever colour comes up, comes up. There is no need to distinguish the two by looks. Most of the time they look different anyway but pop them on stock and there are all the differences they need.

As mentioned, I do not actually have a view on this. I was merely restating what other more knowledgable people had commented upon because I was curious about colour.

4kelpies:

No the blaze, chest, toes etc. are definitely white. There is no problem with white markings with the WKC, but I do know some breeders who don't like white . It wouldn't stop them from keeping or breeding from a dog with white markings if its work was good enough. I remember hearing of some breeders who would put down any cream pups at birth because they thought that sheep wouldn't respect light coloured dogs. (I doubt that dingoes have any problem scaring sheep.) Interestingly a few years ago a cream Kelpie called Yakka Custard sired the dog who won the Bradley Sisters Memorial Trophy for Best Type of Kelpie competing in WKC National Trials. "The trophy is awarded to the dog which possesses sound conformation and pleasing ‘Kelpie type’ appearance." (WKC website) I'm not sure of the colour of the dog who won but his sire was successful in trials and has plenty of progeny around.

As usual you are a font of information! How interesting (and sad!) about the cream puppies. I was noticing from a recent litter of Kelpie puppies at the pound that the cream and chocolate puppies were first to go and the blacks were the last, so cosmetically people seem to like the more unusual colours I also adore the name Yakka Custard - too gorgeous.

[kelpiechick]

That's what I had been told and also what I had assumed based on what I had read at the WKC website, but in this thread there were comments that it wasn't just show breeders who were trying to 'distinguish' their dogs but also the working line breeders. I have no way of knowing what's what ...

Working line breeders are not trying to distunguish their dogs from show lines. They would never even think of them. They are simply breeding with ability and whatever colour comes up, comes up. There is no need to distinguish the two by looks. Most of the time they look different anyway but pop them on stock and there are all the differences they need.

Amen to that

And I'd be running a mile from any breeder who bred primarily for colour no matter what the breed.

The description of some of the colours always cracks me up too - red and tan comes in a big variety of 'shades' but is still red and tan - someone asked me once if one of my red and tans - who potentially carries the fawn gene and runs more to a brown look with cream points - was a 'chocolate/blonde' ????

Would love to see a working breeder advertising a chocolate-blonde litter

[kelpiechick]

No the blaze, chest, toes etc. are definitely white. There is no problem with white markings with the WKC, but I do know some breeders who don't like white . It wouldn't stop them from keeping or breeding from a dog with white markings if its work was good enough.

I remember hearing of some breeders who would put down any cream pups at birth because they thought that sheep wouldn't respect light coloured dogs. (I doubt that dingoes have any problem scaring sheep.) Interestingly a few years ago a cream Kelpie called Yakka Custard sired the dog who won the Bradley Sisters Memorial Trophy for Best Type of Kelpie competing in WKC National Trials. "The trophy is awarded to the dog which possesses sound conformation and pleasing ‘Kelpie type’ appearance." (WKC website) I'm not sure of the colour of the dog who won but his sire was successful in trials and has plenty of progeny around.

Ihave also heard of some breeders putting the cream pups down when they have very sparse hair on nose and ear tips as they are possibly prone to skin cancer without 'protection' and they don't want to bother with that.

There have been some good cream dogs in some of the top studs, pretty sure Capree have bred some very successful trialling dogs that were cream.

[koalathebear]

Still reading up on Kelpie colours ...

I've found what looks like another red and tan show Kelpie on DOL over here. Lovely dogs, although they do look very working line.

Some nice photos here, too of different Kelpie colours.

Probably the most interesting page for me, though has been the page Coat Colours of the Working Australian Kelpie.

Black is interesting because the photo is a black and white dog and if I'd seen that dog in person, I'd have sworn it was a Kelpie cross because of the white chest.

Dilute black i.e. 'blue' can be nice but sometimes the fur looks a little mouldy

My favourite, brown i.e. red is here. There's a solid red working Kelpie on that page.

Dilute brown i.e. fawn again can look nice but is also a bit mouldy-looking in other photos. The page specifically mentions that dogs this colour can be affected with Colour Dilution Alopecia.

If I saw a "Non-Extension Red" i.e. cream Kelpie, there is no way I'd know it was a Kelpie. I would assume it was a dingo cross.

I also found the Tan Points page interesting.

I also checked out the Nose and Eye Colouration page.

Hoover's eyes below:

I think he is the one that says: "whereas "b/b" produces brown pigment wherever the dog would otherwise have produced black. The eye color of the brown dog ranges from greenish to amber to orange to brown"

I can't tell which nose he has because they both look the same to me.

As to white fur, he definitely has white fur ... The red fur on his belly has white fur mixed in with it

Also white is mixed in on his chest

And weirdest of all, on the back of his neck, he has what are almost stripes of white going through his fur - the stripes are kind of on 45 degree angles

ETA: Thank you to the person who sent me the link for the song

Edited November 11, 2010 by koalathebear

[JRzipper]

In my honest opinion havng seen both lines here in Australia I still prefer the show lines. I am of the opinion that many working kennels care not for the standard which is wrong. The standard is there for a reason. Yes sure the dog can work all day, general conformation to a point is still there but the main characteristics are not.

What do you mean by the main characteristics Stonebridge? Most breeders of working kelpies don't care to knowingly adhere to the "appearance" dictated by the standard because it is completely irrelevant. For breeders of working dogs "form follows function" - if your kelpie has working ability, is smart, mentally stable and biddable, has the endurance to work all day, and the constitution, athleticism, soundness and resilience to work everyday, then it is usually a good Kelpie.

When I was (a lot!) younger I bred a line of kelpies that were good yard and backing dogs and trained and sold a few pups from each litter. I worked in the shearing industry so it was a perfect environment to have a couple of training sessions with my pups everyday. In addition to the list of attributes above, in my pups I looked for a good sized foot that would provide balance while running over, or standing on, the sheep's back and that was not small enough to slip down the grating which can be painful and dangerous for the dog. They also had to be slim and flexible to be able to squeeze between and turn sheep in the counting out pens and races and then fly up the backs of sheep in a loading race or sheep truck to turn a sheep facing the wrong way. And confidence is vital in a yard/shed dog that has to work at close quarters with ditzy lambs, stroppy old ewes and murderous rams!Colour really wasn't a factor although I did like the black dogs as I could spot them easily working on the other side of 300 sheep in the yards through the clouds of dust.

This is a photo of my top bitch Jedda with part of a litter of pups of which I ran two on to train and which went on to be very handy dogs in the district over many years. The sire was another reknown local yard dog that had a dash of Coolie in him which was common and often produced dogs of great working ability and drive.

JR

[Lab_Rat]

Still reading up on Kelpie colours ...

I've found what looks like another red and tan show Kelpie on DOL over here. Lovely dogs, although they do look very working line.

Some nice photos here, too of different Kelpie colours.

Probably the most interesting page for me, though has been the page Coat Colours of the Working Australian Kelpie.

Black is interesting because the photo is a black and white dog and if I'd seen that dog in person, I'd have sworn it was a Kelpie cross because of the white chest.

Dilute black i.e. 'blue' can be nice but sometimes the fur looks a little mouldy

My favourite, brown i.e. red is here. There's a solid red working Kelpie on that page.

Dilute brown i.e. fawn again can look nice but is also a bit mouldy-looking in other photos. The page specifically mentions that dogs this colour can be affected with Colour Dilution Alopecia.

If I saw a "Non-Extension Red" i.e. cream Kelpie, there is no way I'd know it was a Kelpie. I would assume it was a dingo cross.

I also found the Tan Points page interesting.

I also checked out the Nose and Eye Colouration page.

Hoover's eyes below:

I think he is the one that says: "whereas "b/b" produces brown pigment wherever the dog would otherwise have produced black. The eye color of the brown dog ranges from greenish to amber to orange to brown"

I can't tell which nose he has because they both look the same to me.

As to white fur, he definitely has white fur ... The red fur on his belly has white fur mixed in with it

Also white is mixed in on his chest

And weirdest of all, on the back of his neck, he has what are almost stripes of white going through his fur - the stripes are kind of on 45 degree angles

ETA: Thank you to the person who sent me the link for the song

I may be completely wrong KTB, but I think that strange colouration on Hoovers neck is called Agouti.....Wandy has it as well! I call it her blonde bits!

This has been a very interesting thread, have read but not participated as I havent felt knowledgeable enough! I am learning lots to do with colouration and genetics! :D

[koalathebear]

I may be completely wrong KTB, but I think that strange colouration on Hoovers neck is called Agouti.....Wandy has it as well! I call it her blonde bits! This has been a very interesting thread, have read but not participated as I havent felt knowledgeable enough! I am learning lots to do with colouration and genetics!

Oooh - you may be right! I've googled Agouti and it sounds like it could be that.

I've learned a lot, too but I'm not smart enough to understand colours and genetics :D For instance, this explanation about tan points makes me go cross-eyed:

In order to express the tan point pattern, the dog must have inherited a copy of the gene from both the sire and dam.

A normal tan point colored dog will also be "k/k" at the "K" locus. When "K" is in the homozygous recessive form "k/k", this allows the expression of the alleles located on the "A" locus. In other words, if a dog is "k/k" and "a^t/a^t", then the tan points will be expressed. If the dog is "K/K" or "K/k" and "a^t/a^t", then the tan point will not be expressed. The expression of the "A" locus alleles is governed by the alleles on the "K" locus.

If both parents are tan pointed ("a^t/a^t"), then they are also 'normal' black ("k"), then all puppies in that litter will be tan pointed, because they inherited a copy of the tan point gene ("a^t") and normal black ("k") from the dam and from the sire. Thus, making them "a^t/a^t k/k" -- tan point.

If you see a solid colored pup in a litter, where both parents are tan pointed -- the sire is not who they think it is or who they say it is. The exception to this are the non-extension (e/e) red/yellow (cream) colored and dogs that are carrying the recessive agouti black ("a") on the A Locus.

If one parent is a tan point ("a^t/a^t k/k") and the other is a non-tan point or solid color (and is homozygous for dominant black - "a^t/a^t K/K"), then all pups in the litter will be solid -- or non-tan point. However, they will be carriers for the tan point gene (the gene is hidden). Hidden genes are recessive and therefore; not expressed. If the tan point is a hidden gene, it is still in the dogs genetic make-up, just not seen. These hidden genes can be inherited by the offspring. They also can be carried for many generations and when mated with a dog with the same recessive gene, the gene will then be expressed (or seen).

If one parent is a tan point ("a^t/a^t k/k") and the other is a non-tan point, but is a carrier ("K/k a^t/a^t"), then some pups will be tan pointed and some will not be (will be solid color). It should be more of a 3:1 ratio or 75% with tan points and 25% without. Ratio's and percentages depend greatly on the litter size.

If both parents are solid colored and both carry the tan point gene ("K/k a^t/a^t"), then some pups will be tan point, some will not. It should be a 50% with tan points and 50% without.

Jrzipper: thanks so much for posting. That was really fascinating! I have many questions I want to ask but am still formulating them in my head

[dancinbcs]

I've learned a lot, too but I'm not smart enough to understand colours and genetics :D For instance, this explanation about tan points makes me go cross-eyed:

Jrzipper: thanks so much for posting. That was really fascinating! I have many questions I want to ask but am still formulating them in my head

Try this website to clarify or further confuse colour genetics for you. Take note of the tan point and dominant black sections especially.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/index.htm

[Kavik]

If I saw a "Non-Extension Red" i.e. cream Kelpie, there is no way I'd know it was a Kelpie. I would assume it was a dingo cross.

sidoney reckoned she would have quite a bit of money if she had a dollar every time someone asked if Xia was a dingo I think she looks pretty obviously Kelpie

[Kavik]

Kaos also has the agouti on his neck and small white patch on chest - the same size white as Hoover's.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Kavik

[asal]

Still reading up on Kelpie colours ...

I've found what looks like another red and tan show Kelpie on DOL over here. Lovely dogs, although they do look very working line.

Some nice photos here, too of different Kelpie colours.

Probably the most interesting page for me, though has been the page Coat Colours of the Working Australian Kelpie.

Black is interesting because the photo is a black and white dog and if I'd seen that dog in person, I'd have sworn it was a Kelpie cross because of the white chest.

Dilute black i.e. 'blue' can be nice but sometimes the fur looks a little mouldy

My favourite, brown i.e. red is here. There's a solid red working Kelpie on that page.

Dilute brown i.e. fawn again can look nice but is also a bit mouldy-looking in other photos. The page specifically mentions that dogs this colour can be affected with Colour Dilution Alopecia.

If I saw a "Non-Extension Red" i.e. cream Kelpie, there is no way I'd know it was a Kelpie. I would assume it was a dingo cross.

I also found the Tan Points page interesting.

I also checked out the Nose and Eye Colouration page.

Hoover's eyes below:

I think he is the one that says: "whereas "b/b" produces brown pigment wherever the dog would otherwise have produced black. The eye color of the brown dog ranges from greenish to amber to orange to brown"

I can't tell which nose he has because they both look the same to me.

As to white fur, he definitely has white fur ... The red fur on his belly has white fur mixed in with it

Also white is mixed in on his chest

And weirdest of all, on the back of his neck, he has what are almost stripes of white going through his fur - the stripes are kind of on 45 degree angles

ETA: Thank you to the person who sent me the link for the song

Odd they dont mention its linked to the blue gene? reading that you would only think the fawn/lilac colours are affected?

[kelpiechick]

The problem with googling colour types also gets confusing because most of the info seems to come from US sites where they also tend to use different descriptors - what we call red, they label brown, etc. Always get confused with their BC genetics in particular as our chocolate BC is a red to them and our red BC I think they call a gold. Very confusing.

The mottled looking colouration can be agouti but can also appear in banded hair - my young boy is banded, if I part his hair then only the very tip is coloured, fom the shaft upwards the hair is cream- if I gave him number 2 clippers he would look like a cream kelpie with a red lower back and flanks, pretty much resembling a saddled kelpie.

[4Kelpies]

Hi KTB I'll bet your head is spinning with all the varied information you'll find on the internet. In the US there are a lot of dogs who are registered as Kelpies who have some ancestors imported from Australia but also a lot of dogs back in their pedigrees who have no stud prefixes and go by single names - Rocky, Jack etc. I tend to suspect that these have other breeds in them apart from Kelpie. If you look at the dogs from old US "Kelpie" bloodlines, they don't look like Australian Working Kelpies. The dogs you've seen in the photos could well be crossbreds. And as kelpiechick said a lot of terms used there may not be what we would use here. To make things even more confusing, in a lot of writing about early Kelpies; dogs were described by their primary colours only, so a lot of black and tan dogs would only have been described as black.

The Bilsons (of Noonbarra) used to have an excellent website about the history of the Kelpie and it included a section on colours and coat types etc. but unfortunately when the website host geocities was closed down, it went too.

A lot of Kelpies have that ring around their necks. Tia's mother and several of her sisters had it.

[kelpiechick]

The Bilsons (of Noonbarra) used to have an excellent website about the history of the Kelpie and it included a section on colours and coat types etc. but unfortunately when the website host geocities was closed down, it went too.

That was a really good article from memory and there's not much else coming from Oz that looks at it. Plus it was easy to understand too. They touch on it briefly in their kelpie basics book (which is also an excellent read) but not to the same extent.

I think you are spot on in regard to a lot of the US bloodlines, have also heard that it is the same in the UK where there are some very questionable but registered 'kelpies'.

[koalathebear]

All fascinating stuff. I think I'm going to ask Santa for that Kelpie book by Tony Parsons for Christmas. :D I've been referring to Hoover as a two tone Kelpie but now I realise with the white he's actually a three tone :D

dancinbcs: that website is GREAT! I have a defective brain though and find it quite hard to process genetic combinations. :D

[jesomil]

I think I'm going to ask Santa for that Kelpie book by Tony Parsons for Christmas.

Tony Parsons books are fantastic but expensive these days. I had to pay over $100 for my copy but its well worth it.

ETA just googled it and found he has just published a new book!! So wont be hard to find at all!

I've found what looks like another red and tan show Kelpie on DOL over here. Lovely dogs, although they do look very working line.

I think you would find they are dual registered, so registered with ANKC and WKC. They certainly look working line and have working lines in their pedigree. They couldnt be shown, they would be advertising them as sport dogs. Not sure of the ins and outs of dual registry or their purpose. All the duals I have seen couldnt be shown.

Edited November 12, 2010 by jesomil