"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[corvus]

Not "extreme" dogs, but definitely dogs with reactions similar to those of many dogs I've seen on The Dog Whisperer.

Similar or the same? If its not the same then the point it not valid.

You're the CM fan, you tell me. I've only seen half a dozen episodes. It's never going to be a valid comparison because we can't make one on two dogs with two separate histories, different genetics, and different levels of stress reactivity or boldness/timidity. But that doesn't mean it's worthless to look at the reactions of both dogs to the training methods and how quick and effective each was. Especially if the behaviours were the same, or the triggers were the same. Or both.

[Vickie]

Things are not always as they seem. I worked both my dogs this morning with a stockwhip in my hand. Dog 1 was not at all worried about me having the whip before I started to work her, but did respond to it & was respectful of it when I did work her. Dog 2 was tied up when I worked dog1. She was showing extreme shut down behaviour about the whip. At the other end of the lead, turned away, couldn't look etc. The second she started to work, all that disappeared & she Responded but was not nearly as respectful of it as Dog1.

If I had looked at their initial levels of stress reactivity, I may have predicted a very different scenario and chosen a different (and incorrect) path

many of the extreme CM methods are not fir the average handler with the average dog.

When you are dealing with extremes of instinct, aggression, fear etc, average methods are probably not going to cut it.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Vickie

[Aidan3]

i think if he were cruel to them they wouldn't come up to him in his pack pretty sure they would try to avoid him or flee or even attack.

Well I rest my case then How many episodes have you seen?

I don't see how you would use positive reinforcement on a highly aggressive pit bull, he does what he does and it works.

Maybe you should watch Dogtown, also on National Geographic. They took the worst of the Michael Vick fighting pitbulls and rehabilitated all but one (I think) using positive reinforcement. Worth a look, although it comes with a Kleenex warning for the softies out there.

[Dogsrawesome]

Maybe you should watch Dogtown, also on National Geographic. They took the worst of the Michael Vick fighting pitbulls and rehabilitated all but one (I think) using positive reinforcement. Worth a look, although it comes with a Kleenex warning for the softies out there.

I have seen it made me cry :D all those pitties glaad they could save most of them.

and i have seen all of his episode im a addicted

Edited March 20, 2011 by Dogperson

[TessnSean]

Has anyone seen dogs or wolves in a pack together by themselves im pretty sure they treat each other the same as CM rehabilitates the dogs.

Correct Dogperson. How many times have you sat and watched a bitch with her pups? She will handle them far more roughly than I would. I have seen plenty of times where a puppy will be chastised by an older dog with far more force than CM ever applies and come back, showing no harm. Whether you like his methods or not, he reads dogs brilliantly.

[LuvsDobes]

I don't see how you would use positive reinforcement on a highly aggressive pit bull, he does what he does and it works.

Maybe you should watch Dogtown, also on National Geographic. They took the worst of the Michael Vick fighting pitbulls and rehabilitated all but one (I think) using positive reinforcement. Worth a look, although it comes with a Kleenex warning for the softies out there.

Yes, but the Vick PitBulls were not reported to be highly aggressive, bar the one female sho was PTS after evaluation. The remainder of those dogs varied between shut down pancake dogs and highly aroused dogs ( and who bluddy knows how much of that was kennel stress! ).

[OSoSwift]

I haven't seen a lot of his shows but I think he does have a body language that comes across as he is very confident and as a leader.

I find quite often at dog training that if an owner is having problems getting a behaviour they want and I help, the dog will quite often do it for me or at least try. I think that may be because I have a different body language than their owners do - not sure,but I have had a few different breeds and am yet to have one that has become a problem dog even when they would be regarded by most as a dominant dog.

I guess I feel more confident than some people out there and the dogs recognise that and it helps to calm them??? anyway, some people have it and I think Caesar does from the little I have seen. As for the other things he does, I cannot comment as I haven't seen them.

As for my training methods - I still have a lot to learn!

[Aidan3]

I don't see how you would use positive reinforcement on a highly aggressive pit bull, he does what he does and it works.

Maybe you should watch Dogtown, also on National Geographic. They took the worst of the Michael Vick fighting pitbulls and rehabilitated all but one (I think) using positive reinforcement. Worth a look, although it comes with a Kleenex warning for the softies out there.

Yes, but the Vick PitBulls were not reported to be highly aggressive, bar the one female sho was PTS after evaluation. The remainder of those dogs varied between shut down pancake dogs and highly aroused dogs ( and who bluddy knows how much of that was kennel stress! ).

They were champion fighting dogs. That means they were successful in the fighting ring, fighting for their life with other dogs. Vick didn't remove her teeth because they were rotten, he removed them so that he could put a stud over her without her killing them. I'm not sure what criteria we need to define a "highly aggressive" dog, but killing other champion fighting dogs in fights would seem a reasonable definition!

They were also tortured, abused and neglected by people. Thrown in the ring with their mouths taped shut. Hooked up to car batteries when they lost. By humans. Excuse me if they weren't scared shitless of everyone and everything.

Can we not accept that Dogtown did an amazing job rehabilitating seriously aggressive, selectively bred for aggression, ex-fighting dogs, rescued from some of the most appalling conditions imaginable - because they used positive methods and therefore render the argument that "some dogs need more than rewards" invalid?

[BMAK]

yes i also would love to see someone with a bag of freshly cooked chicken and my dog on the end of the leash, go for your life as you won't get anywhere with his aggression.

Teaching him exercises, like sit, in a area with no dogs yes!

motivation training works perfectly, add a dog, the chicken is nothing more then a bade of glass on his nose, if the dog is at a level of intensity, food is not going to snap him out of it it has to be an action.

No, if they are a problem then food will not "snap them out of it". I think a lot of people try this and are disappointed, trainers included. It doesn't work that way, that isn't positive reinforcement, reinforcement means you increased the behaviour. The next time the dog is presented with the same environment, you see the reinforced response again which is what we all want.

We need to build those responses without putting the dog over threshold too far, and a lot of people don't know how to do that, or are disappointed when something happens that is out of their control (and it WILL). Or they think that the only way they can do it is to control the environment too much, which isn't practical.

Competent positive reinforcement training isn't particularly restrictive. We usually have dogs working with other dogs within a couple of weeks, and we get robust reinforcement - more of the behaviours that we want. There are always exceptions, but really most dogs fall somewhere on the bell curve, the extremes aren't all that common. The Michael Vick pit fighting rescues are up there with the worst of them, and the rescue org who took them on didn't do anything I wouldn't do (where is the love for those guys, btw?)

If you're using corrections every time your dog is around another dog, then all you're really doing is interrupting. The behavior should be improving. You should be able to start to use food around other dogs very quickly, not to prove a point about positive reinforcement, but as a bit of a demonstration that your dog is not highly anxious.

Sorry i didn't make my post quite clear, i was using the chicken as an example for concentration levels hehe, i use positive reinforcement marking with my boy on certain terms with his aggression(he isn't bad as what it may have came out like) but take one of CM cases i couldn't see food working for a pitbull. (sympathetic post not sarcastic so no body mis-interprets it

if a dog doesn't want to do a exercise for food even if he knows it, how else are you mean't to get him to do the behaviour you asked ?

ask the stubbon one kindly ?

There are so many assumptions, there. Off the top of my head:

a) The dog "knows" it

b) The dog perceived the cue

c) Food is a reward in this situation

d) The reward history is strong enough

e) The dog is under threshold

f) The behaviour is comfortable and does not cause pain

g) The cue for the behaviour is the most salient stimuli

h) The cue to the dog is what the handler thinks it is

If you do apply P+ or P- as a consequence for not doing the behaviour cued, are you decreasing the incidence of "not doing as asked" or are you decreasing the incidence of whatever the dog was doing instead? Dogs are always behaving. I'd say use R- if you feel you must do something. I wouldn't bother, though.

With these purley positive methods, it is using the dogs natural movements and behaviours,making it free will for the dog to follow them. (sorry bit confused by your post) but a lot of the dogs i know that already have been taught the behaviour, when they refuse to do the exercise they "win" because the owners let them get away with it.

Since there is only nice methods where the dog isn't being forced to respond it does basically what ever it wishes. applied to obedience not so much CM rehab

Edited March 20, 2011 by catherine.b

[Aidan3]

but take one of CM cases i couldn't see food working for a pitbull sorry.

You should watch the Dogtown special on the Vick dogs then, I think you'll get a surprise.

The worst dog I ever had foamed at the mouth when a plastic bag blew across the other end of a football field sized area. Her owner had lived in a few states and the dog was seven years old, so they'd been to a few trainers. His dog couldn't be walked anywhere where another dog was likely to be seen. Medication hadn't helped, and the dog was born that way.

We had this dog taking food around other dogs within a couple of weeks, the owner was astounded. Then we very quickly got her down to sits, drops, looking at other dogs, and walking on a loose leash within 5m of another dog within another couple of weeks. She was never brilliant, but at least she could be walked without having a fit and taking days to come down.

[Cosmolo]

The definition of cure is interesting too- i'd love to see follow ups on the cases that any TV dog trainer works with- would make for much more realistic television.

Dogs know we are not dogs too and while the way dogs interact together suggests they certainly respond to punishment, it is far too simplistic to suggest that because a dog can do XYZ to another and have them understand and learn from it that we can attempt to do exactly the same thing.

I do use punishment in training, i do use physical corrections at times. But consistently putting dogs over threshold and correcting the resulting high intensity behaviour with high intensity punishers is not my preference. One thing that is also handy to keep in mind is that it matters not what the dog trainer. whisperer, behaviourists does with the dog- if the owner does not have the ability or inclination to use the chosen techniques.

I agree that the video compilation was bias. But even when taking that into account, some of it was still distressing to me and i would be horrified to be present when a dog was 'trained' in that manner.

[LuvsDobes]

I don't see how you would use positive reinforcement on a highly aggressive pit bull, he does what he does and it works.

Maybe you should watch Dogtown, also on National Geographic. They took the worst of the Michael Vick fighting pitbulls and rehabilitated all but one (I think) using positive reinforcement. Worth a look, although it comes with a Kleenex warning for the softies out there.

Yes, but the Vick PitBulls were not reported to be highly aggressive, bar the one female sho was PTS after evaluation. The remainder of those dogs varied between shut down pancake dogs and highly aroused dogs ( and who bluddy knows how much of that was kennel stress! ).

They were champion fighting dogs. That means they were successful in the fighting ring, fighting for their life with

other dogs. Vick didn't remove her teeth because they were rotten, he removed them so that he could put a stud over her without her killing them. I'm not sure what criteria we need to define a "highly aggressive" dog, but killing other champion fighting dogs in fights would seem a reasonable definition!

They were also tortured, abused and neglected by people. Thrown in the ring with their mouths taped shut. Hooked up to car batteries when they lost. By humans. Excuse me if they weren't scared shitless of everyone and everything.

Can we not accept that Dogtown did an amazing job rehabilitating seriously aggressive, selectively bred for aggression, ex-fighting dogs, rescued from some of the most appalling conditions imaginable - because they used positive methods and

therefore render the argument that "some dogs need more than rewards" invalid?

Have a read of the book 'The Lost Dogs' by Jim Gorant. It is the story of the Vick PitBulls. I don't recall DogTown as one of the organizations involved with these dogs, though is that the name of the TV program? The organizations (BAD RAP, Best Friends, Georgia SPCA and All or Nothing Rescue, Richmond Animal League, Recycled Love to name a few) did amazing work with these dogs.

The female initially PTS was indeed aggressive due to forced over breeding, but it was the female originally named Jane who lost her teeth due to infection ect... Jane made it through and was renamed. All in all, I think 48 were rehabilitated to some degree or another. A high percentage achieved Canine Good Citizen certification, quite a few became certified Therapy dogs. Many now live in foster and permanent forever homes. Dome remain in sanctuary. A couple died, and I believe 42 was the final number when the book was completed in 2010

It was widely acknowledged that the Vick dogs (with only 2-3 exceptions) either had not fought, were unwilling to fight, or

were bait dogs.

I don't dispute the power of positive training methods. Nor do I dispute the need for unique, individualized treatment programs for red zone dogs. I'm simply pointing out the the Vick PitBulls (and I'm not talking about all fighting dogs, just the Vick dogs) were not reported as highly aggressive, sh*t scared, yes, highly aggressive, red zone, no, not to my understanding.

[corvus]

a lot of the dogs i know that already have been taught the behaviour, when they refuse to do the exercise they "win" because the owners let them get away with it.

Since there is only nice methods where the dog isn't being forced to respond it does basically what ever it wishes.

They can't "get away with" not responding correctly if they didn't know what the correct response was. Just because they can do it in a handful of situations does not mean they know the behaviour in a brand new situation. As Temple Grandin says, animals are masters of detail, whereas humans are masters of general patterns. That's why we have to make sure a dog generalises a cue, which means we have to make sure they know it means the same thing regardless of where they are, what is going on around them, how aroused they are, how far from you they are and so on and so on. I love the look of surprise on my dogs' faces when I ask them to do a "known" behaviour in a whole new way or new surroundings. It's like "Wha...? Oh! This!" If I've done my job right. If I haven't, it's like "Wha...? How about this? No? This? No? I don't get it!" A win for the dog is getting rewarded. If you don't reward an incorrect response and the dog isn't free to find his own reward, then the dog hasn't won. Eventually we get to the point (if we have done it correctly) where the dog is allowed to do whatever it wishes because it will reliably wish to do what has historically been very rewarding. I very rarely force my dogs to repond. They do what they wish for the most part. And for the most part they wish to snatch any and every opportunity to earn rewards from us. It becomes a bit of a compulsion.

[Aidan3]

I'm simply pointing out the the Vick PitBulls (and I'm not talking about all fighting dogs, just the Vick dogs) were not reported as highly aggressive, sh*t scared, yes, highly aggressive, red zone, no, not to my understanding.

It would be interesting to see these "red zone" dogs that CM works with given the same unbiased evaluation that the professionals dealing with the Vick dogs used. I have no idea what criteria is used to define a "red zone" dog, other than Cesar's opinion.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Has anyone seen dogs or wolves in a pack together by themselves im pretty sure they treat each other the same as CM rehabilitates the dogs.

Myth. Wolves do not "alpha roll" each other. And the lead wolf - usually female - stays in the middle of the pack and the scout wolf leads - as this is the most dangerous place to be.

I've read Farley Mowat's book "never cry wolf" (movie is a joke). It is a story about his experiences studying wolves and the pack behaviour is nothing at all like what CM talks about.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

What I dislike most about CMs programs is people do "try this at home" and it is horrible to watch.

What I dislike next most is CM's completely flawed reasoning on why what he does works (if it really works at all - I see more frightened dogs than happy dogs at the end of his shows).

[Dogsrawesome]

Has anyone seen dogs or wolves in a pack together by themselves im pretty sure they treat each other the same as CM rehabilitates the dogs.

Myth. Wolves do not "alpha roll" each other. And the lead wolf - usually female - stays in the middle of the pack and the scout wolf leads - as this is the most dangerous place to be.

I've read Farley Mowat's book "never cry wolf" (movie is a joke). It is a story about his experiences studying wolves and the pack behaviour is nothing at all like what CM talks about.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

What I dislike most about CMs programs is people do "try this at home" and it is horrible to watch.

What I dislike next most is CM's completely flawed reasoning on why what he does works (if it really works at all - I see more frightened dogs than happy dogs at the end of his shows).

I watch plenty of documentaries on foxtel and i see wolves in packs pin each other to thr ground teeth full on in each others neck and then the next minute best friends if wolves and dogs dont show dominance well then im blind or my eyes are playing tricks on me. I agree people shoundnt try it at home and he clearly says that in every episode and it also comes up in a caption, he always says seek a local professional, research before you buy either rescue an older dog or buy a purebred from a reputable breeder. He is also open to other methods and has used them, I don't see why so many people are against him if all he is doing is helping dogs in need. He has never said anything bad about positive reinforcement and he has used it just some of the cases it obviously doesn't work in the short amount of time he does most of these cases which is 60mins unless he takes them to his centre then he does do mostly positive unless its a redzone. call me brained washed but what he does to me works and i admire his work 100%.

[corvus]

I watch plenty of documentaries on foxtel and i see wolves in packs pin each other to thr ground teeth full on in each others neck and then the next minute best friends if wolves and dogs dont show dominance well then im blind or my eyes are playing tricks on me.

Wolves ain't dogs! Google David Mech. He's the guy that coined the phrase "alpha wolf". He is trying very hard to get everyone to hear him say he was wrong. There is a video on YouTube, I think, of him explaining why he was wrong.

I have never seen a dog force another dog to the ground. I've often seen a "pin", but when you look closely and watch the balance of weight in each dog, you'll see the dog underneath goes down on their own. In early episodes of The Dog Whisperer Cesar was doing the same thing. He was intimidating the dog to the point where they would go down on their own. It was not hard for him. Most of the dogs were used to getting their own way and as soon as they realised it wasn't going to work with this guy they went over on their own. But not every dog does and so Cesar, knowing what he wanted, just forced the dogs.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog always rolls over on her own... The other dog might "tell her" to do it but she always volunteers it. This is what Farley Mowat decribed. If one wolf volunteers this, the other wolf is not allowed to hurt him/her, though they will stand over the upside down ones' throat with their teeth barred. I have seen dogs volunteer this and the other dog continue to inflict damage and pain - because the other dog is broken by dog (and wolf) social rules. These are the worst dogs, the beserker ones.

When my dog does the "kill the antelope hold" on another dog, it's always with that other dog's consent. For her, she's just playing.

[Nekhbet]

Sorry, I don't agree that we need to get the dog to react so that we can use a punishing consequence to teach it not to react. We can teach a dog what to do in those situations without a punisher. I'm not saying that it isn't useful to use punishers, but I disagree that it's a necessary condition.

in many cases - no. Not necessary. In some cases, and they are few, it can be useful in the long term for the dog to exhibit and be punished for the behaviour. Especially in some cases where you are dealing with dangerous behaviours. Saying that is must ALWAYS be followed up by showing the dog the alternative behaviour and reinforcement of the correct behaviour must outnumber the punishment greatly. I would not trust, say, a HA dog that has not learned putting teeth on humans is bad and that alternative behaviour X is super duper awesome! Avoiding the issue is not always the best way and in most cases a little stress wont hurt any dog. Saying that pushing a dog to make yourself look like a hero is effing stupid and down to pure ego.

As for Cesar and positive reinforcement, we're so conditioned to think that positive reinforcement means lavish application of food, toys or attention. Canines are the masters of subtlety, we're the clumbsy lumbering creatures comparably. Just because some people dont carry a belt full of varoius paraphenalia doesnt mean they are not applying some reinforcement.

[Dxenion]

The worst dog I ever had foamed at the mouth when a plastic bag blew across the other end of a football field sized area. Her owner had lived in a few states and the dog was seven years old, so they'd been to a few trainers. His dog couldn't be walked anywhere where another dog was likely to be seen. Medication hadn't helped, and the dog was born that way.

We had this dog taking food around other dogs within a couple of weeks, the owner was astounded. Then we very quickly got her down to sits, drops, looking at other dogs, and walking on a loose leash within 5m of another dog within another couple of weeks. She was never brilliant, but at least she could be walked without having a fit and taking days to come down.

What training did you do with this dog to get these great results and have you seen CM do something similar?

Always looking to expand my toolbox with different training ideas. CM, Victoria Stilwell, Turid Rugaas, Susan Garrett, Kikopup and Puppy Prodigies (just to name a few) all have different methods of handling dogs but the one thing they all have in common is that their methods work.

Granted, the only trainer I've seen successfully handle red zone dogs is CM (and I'm on the lookout for any other red zone trainers to see what method they use) but I believe if you have a variety of humane methods in your kit, you are more likely to have just the right one that works like a charm on that particular dog. I think CM has chalked up so many sucesses because a lot of his body language comes from that of dogs and I think dogs can be the best teachers of all.