Prong Collars

[Nekhbet]

I agree with Joe, Bianca you need to find an experienced trainer who understands what is going on. I too would not use a head halter with a lunger, save trialling new things until you find someone experienced.

Personally, call the local Schutzhund/Sportdog club

[bianca.a]

I agree with Joe, Bianca you need to find an experienced trainer who understands what is going on. I too would not use a head halter with a lunger, save trialling new things until you find someone experienced.

Personally, call the local Schutzhund/Sportdog club

Thank you both for your advice This isn't a head collar but a gentle leader harness. I have never been to a positive only based club before and I am conflicted. I do think a lot of what is said makes sense such as working her at a distance and sub threshold but then I think surely a well timed correction could potentially sort this mess out too. The trainer did suggest I might consider a beviourist but then again that would just be one persons opinion too. Grrrr I am lost. All I know is that this problem has been getting worse - even before I tried the no corrections.

[JoeK]

I agree with Joe, Bianca you need to find an experienced trainer who understands what is going on. I too would not use a head halter with a lunger, save trialling new things until you find someone experienced.

Personally, call the local Schutzhund/Sportdog club

Thank you both for your advice This isn't a head collar but a gentle leader harness. I have never been to a positive only based club before and I am conflicted. I do think a lot of what is said makes sense such as working her at a distance and sub threshold but then I think surely a well timed correction could potentially sort this mess out too. The trainer did suggest I might consider a beviourist but then again that would just be one persons opinion too. Grrrr I am lost. All I know is that this problem has been getting worse - even before I tried the no corrections.

Yes, is good idea from Nekhbet to speaking with the Schutzhund club becuase they can put you to contact with good trainers whos knowing the problem well and used to the Shepherd temperament can help much better than general dog club. What makes the Shepherd Dog worse in lunging and barking is whos they bark at backing off which give the Shepherd confidence they are winning the argument. The trainer if understanding civil drive can fix this dog behavior no problems and is common behavior in working dogs is not perfect, but some very good dogs are like this without the proper training. In the dog club this behavior is not understand and making the handler uncomfortable with reactive dogs and making bad atmosphere making handler feel is all their fault is wrong. Reactive dogs has genetic basis in the Shepherd and much easier to learn when trainer is understanding of the problem and how is fixed.

Joe

[ruthless]

Our prongs were fitted properly and I only ever open them with the last link. They've popped open on occasion so we use the Leerburg DD collars for backup now.

Even Ed Frawley's prong popped open in one of his DVDs

[~*Shell*~]

I used a prong collar with Zero's highly reactive behaviour. He pulled me off my feet several times trying to get at other dogs. I found that it was the only tool that helped us. The halti/gentle leader/head collar (i think i went through like 4 of them) were all off him in a few seconds if he wanted to get free. He could slip them all off over his head without a problem if he wanted to, no matter how tight they were.

His was properly fitted and we went through a training program with k9pro with it - i only needed it for about 8 weeks though. It's not been sitting in my cupboard gathering dust for about 2 years

[Aussienot]

I too recommend a prong collar for large, lunging uncontrollable dogs. It is a corrective collar, but it modifies behaviour with only a few corrections, so is much more postitive than constant jerking on a check chain. Any tool used incorrectly will not work the way you want it too, but since you are working with a trainer who undertands their use I think you'll be happy with the outcome.

[Clyde]

My trainer has suggested using a prong collar and I trialled him with this (under instruction / guidance) at obedience class yesterday with loads of dog distractions and it definitely made a huge difference. He was heeling well though will usually do this in a training environment.

I'm surprised any Club up the Beaches has allowed the use of a prong. Good on them though for being more open minded

[BorderBo]

My trainer has suggested using a prong collar and I trialled him with this (under instruction / guidance) at obedience class yesterday with loads of dog distractions and it definitely made a huge difference. He was heeling well though will usually do this in a training environment.

I'm surprised any Club up the Beaches has allowed the use of a prong. Good on them though for being more open minded

No, not a club on the Beaches - not on their lives, I've heard!

[BorderBo]

I too recommend a prong collar for large, lunging uncontrollable dogs. It is a corrective collar, but it modifies behaviour with only a few corrections, so is much more postitive than constant jerking on a check chain. Any tool used incorrectly will not work the way you want it too, but since you are working with a trainer who undertands their use I think you'll be happy with the outcome.

Yes, I totally agree with you regarding constant jerking on a check chain - my dog has a large-ish head compared to his neck so to get the right size over his head means too much slack around his neck. I've had another fall this morning with him lunging at a dog - skinned a knee this time through my pants. My prong is on order but to have used one on Saturday and seen fantastic results and to be now back on a check chain in the interim period - it's call prong teasing, I think!

[BorderBo]

I used a prong collar with Zero's highly reactive behaviour. He pulled me off my feet several times trying to get at other dogs. I found that it was the only tool that helped us. The halti/gentle leader/head collar (i think i went through like 4 of them) were all off him in a few seconds if he wanted to get free. He could slip them all off over his head without a problem if he wanted to, no matter how tight they were.

His was properly fitted and we went through a training program with k9pro with it - i only needed it for about 8 weeks though. It's not been sitting in my cupboard gathering dust for about 2 years

I've been pulled off my feet two consecutive days in a row so this is music to my ears!

[Cosmolo]

Just wanted to add that using a prong collar and a system like LAT don't have to be mutually exclusive. In some cases, it is beneficial to stop the dangerous behaviour first and then begin to use something like LAT to change the emotional response that was driving the behaviour.

[Red Fox]

Totally agree with a properly fitted prong shouldn't come apart ...

My prong collars have quick lease clips (one scissor clip and a normal snap clip) - as I hated having to use the links to get it on and off. Our collars are the "heavy duty" version so it can be very difficult to get the links together again. It was the snap clip that failed for me ... but I have heard of some prong collars failing which have resulted on the dog running free. For me - the DD collar is a light weight safety back-up which I never leave home without.

I brought mine from K9 Pro.

Tilly have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/leerburg#p/u/1/5e1hgg6huLg

I've never used a quick release, but if I was I think I'd certainly be using a back up too.

[Quickasyoucan]

I had a prong come open at an inopportune time (I think the link reversed out of the clip). When I was using mine I used to use a loose martingale for backup. You can use a double ended lead if you are like me and find 2 leads too hard!

I got my prong after a session with Steve at K9 Pro, my dog was an inveterate puller of 4.5 years and a skateboard obssessive. We really only needed it for a few months before we were able to transition to a martingale. Only wish I had found Steve earlier!

A friend who I walk with in the evenings has highly reactive dogs (one DA, one very very over excitable). She uses variously a prong and/or a DD collar to good effect, again under Steve's supervision.

Our walks have gone from nightmares for her to normal pleasurable strolls. Finding the right tool (and the right trainer) can literally change a dog owners life!

[Erny]

I had a prong come open at an inopportune time (I think the link reversed out of the clip). When I was using mine I used to use a loose martingale for backup. You can use a double ended lead if you are like me and find 2 leads too hard!

You shouldn't need to use two leads. So long as the back-up collar (eg. check chain; martingale; whatever) is longer than it should normally be so that it does not come into operation when applying the PPCollar, you can hook the lead rings of each the PPCollar and the Back-up collar to the lead snaphook.

[Erny]

Have you tried a head halter like the gentle leader. You have to train the dog to accept it first with games and treats. It gives you control over your dog's head, what he looks at, what he sniffs. If you follow the instructions on the DVD, and get a really good fit - very tight (one finger) around the top of the neck above the adams apple/trachea and right under the skull bump, so it can't twist around the dog's face, it won't rub...

So when he spies another dog, you grab the clip under his chin and turn his head towards you and when he relaxes, you release the tension and see what he does - if he turns back towards the other dog - turn his head back towards you. Get far enough away from the other dog that he can pay attention to you and reward that.

"Grab" ??? Be careful not to to do so fast.

I've seen head collars fitted as precisely to manufacturer specification as one could get and, with a dog who is particularly rambunctious, it still can rub.

I have seen the prong collar used successfully without damaging the dog, but the handler needs training to get their use of it right. Since you live near Steve Courtney - if that's the way you decide to go, I'd get some lessons from him specifically for managing this dog in the prong collar if I were you. But I'd try the GL first.

I've seen frequent enough damage caused to dogs through the use of Head Collars - ranging from mild through to severe. Can't say the same for PPCollars.

I don't know why people are quick to suggest tuition in the use of a PPCollar yet are not as quick to suggest the same for Head Collars. I think tuition for both (in fact, tuition for all training collars) should be recommended. BUT, if there was no choice and a novice handler had to use either a PPCollar OR a Head Collar without tuition, I'd suggest the PPCollar.

This is not to begin a "this is better than that" debate, but when more than one piece of equipment is referenced (especially in the same sentence/paragraph) I think it pays to discuss them both equally. To hint at a "con" for one but only mention a "pro" for another, can set people into the wrongful belief that there is danger in the use of one but not the other.

ETA: Definitely agree with Mrs RB's suggestion of working at or behind threshold so your dog can win and you can reward, and also the recommendation to make an appointment to see Steve for a lesson (whether or not you use a PPCollar) .

Edited May 2, 2011 by Erny

[Quickasyoucan]

I had a prong come open at an inopportune time (I think the link reversed out of the clip). When I was using mine I used to use a loose martingale for backup. You can use a double ended lead if you are like me and find 2 leads too hard!

You shouldn't need to use two leads. So long as the back-up collar (eg. check chain; martingale; whatever) is longer than it should normally be so that it does not come into operation when applying the PPCollar, you can hook the lead rings of each the PPCollar and the Back-up collar to the lead snaphook.

Erny the only thing I found was that even if the martingale was loose it tended to drag the prong downwards and away from the optimum position, hence my comment about the double ended lead.

ETA to the OP, K9 Pro has a Sydney seminar coming up in July. As far as I know it is sold out atm but he may have a waiting list if you are interested. Just to mention as I have been to a few and come away with heaps of new information they are highly recommended

Edited May 2, 2011 by Quickasyoucan

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Agree with most of what you wrote Erny.

Especially the no fast grabs, sliding hand down the lead to the clip is a better technique, but it is also helpful to train a dog to find collar grabs rewarding (guess who I've been training with).

It would be ideal there would be no opportunity for a dog to be lunging at anything. Sigh. Ie you'd work in an area where you had control over how close you were to distracting dogs or if there were any dogs around at all. The more the dog gets to lunge - the more the dog will try it on.

With the prong collars (and remote e collars) it really helps to train a dog how to relieve the pressure first ie the escape training. I'm crap at that and the timing of it. Got it all wrong. So I'm really not keen to get a prong collar, no matter how much of a sled dog mine can be.

Not so much a problem with the head halter. Note dog shouldn't be allowed to rub at it either (disagree with the DVD here).

But conditioning the dog to accept head halter - before you go out to the big wide world of distractions, will the dog eat or tug in the head halter - no? Still tries to get it off? More conditioning acceptance required first.

Corrections (punishment) applied to a dog already in a fearful state - is not going to have a good outcome. You just give them extra reason to be upset. Which is why you need to train the escape prong pressure - while the dog is calm and thinking straight.

I'm really enjoying learning the Susan Garrett way, but it's not all positive. It is mostly reward based. I have to keep asking myself - what am I doing that is encouraging this particular behaviour (that I don't want) and how do I change that, and what can I do to encourage the behaviour I do want. Some of it is really challenging for me. I don't want to put my dog in a head halter or crate her when I'm home.

[JoeK]

Sometimes you needing to being careful with the prong on some dogs and for the Ecollar becuase is escaluting aggression and acting as agigation collar making the angry. Probably not finding this often, but I using this slipping collar here if the dog gets cranky on the prong becuase the slipping collar taking driva away when the prong can lift the drive up.

Joe

[Yesmaam]

Would welcome feedback from trainers and users of the prong collar - its effectiveness in helping to control pulling, lurching, lunging and focus in a highly reactive dog.

I am at the end of my own tether with a 10 month adolescent border x kelpie who is a rescue dog that I have had for 2 1/2 months. I have had dogs all throughout my life and have undertaken basic obedience training with each of them - I have never experienced any major behavioural issues that were not overcome and have enjoyed long and pleasurable relationships with these wonderful companions. I am struggling with my beautiful new boy - he has proven a big handful for me and whilst a recent training / boarding program has definitely improved things, he is still highly reactive around other dogs now back in his own environment and walking him twice daily is incredibly stressful and exhausting - for me.

I am no wallflower and don't let him willingly walk all over me ... out walking I am forever doing about right turns to bring him back to heel when he tries to forge ahead, do numerous sits, drops and stays, particularly when he starts to get worked up - and praise / reward him with high value treats accordingly for obedience, including for focus (I do numerous look exercises throughout our walks and he can keep focus during low level dog distractions.

I am used to enjoyable, stress-free walks and off-leash dog park activities with my former companions so this is all new and very daunting territory for me. I'm buggered if I know where I am going wrong with my leadership skills when out walking - when we are training in the park he is totally focused and eager to work for me - recreational walking is another, altogether different experience.

It's NILIF all the way at home and he has learned to be VERY respectful in every way - waits to be released through door ways, in and out of the car, eating his dinner, won't step a paw in areas of the home where he is not allowed access, etc. I can't fault his behaviour in this regard - he is good natured and a gentleman with everyone who visits our home. Ironically, when we are out walking / training in the park, numerous people come up to me and remark on what a well-behaved, well-trained dog he is - until a dog appears and then it all goes pear-shaped.

My trainer has suggested using a prong collar and I trialled him with this (under instruction / guidance) at obedience class yesterday with loads of dog distractions and it definitely made a huge difference. He was heeling well though will usually do this in a training environment.

I appreciate that prong / check chains / corrections are an emotive subject and am not looking to attract or generate personal criticism or disparagement - constructive comment from anyone who has used a prong collar to address these type of issues and whether they were successful / used short or long term.

Thank you in advance.

Nothing wrong with prong collars at all, just some of the idiots who use them......... But more idiots use chokers incorrectly anyway and the only thing that stops a choker from closing in on itself

is the dogs neck.... If used correctly, the prong is the best collar on the market. Most look at them and gasp - they look nasty so they must be nasty - kind of attitude without any real knowledge on how to use them. They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.