Excrutiatingly Stubborn Dog

[Leelaa17]

Hi guys,

I just wanted some opinions/advice on Max (this time lol)...

he is an incredibly intelligent dog but is now persuaded by food, or toys... so it makes it reasonably hard to train him - although we just make sure we train him before eating and normally its ok.

The difference between him and jenna is that jenna will listen to every word I say and do it immediately, she is so good! whereas max, although older, has a serious stubborness issue. He will literally look at me like I am a fool if I ask him to do something... unless he REALLY wants something, he most of the time refuses to listen to me.

EG. If they are sitting at the back door waiting to come in and I say 'sit', they are so excited for about 10 seconds that they just go a little crazy, and then when they see the door isn't opening they sit immediately.

If the back door is open and I come inside and turn around and say 'stay', they will stay until I let them come in, whether or not I walk away to do something else or not.

HOWEVER... If I am lying on the lounge and I ask max to sit he will just stare at me... then walk away... then he'll come back and the process will start again... I know it is about a pack leader thing, and I think jenna has finally learned that I am pack leader... sometimes... its very difficult for me when I have grown up NOT being the pack leader! lol

I just want to hear similar stories and how people have dealt with it... maybe even some funny stories...

and please, if someone wants to have a go because I am not doing the right thing, then say it in a friendly way!

Thanks in advance guys!

[sas]

I don't neccessarily think it's a 'leadership' thing.

From what you have said I think you may be trying to treat both your dogs the same and expect the same when their motivation is different...maybe not but that's how I interpreted it.

It doesn't sound like Max has absolutely any value in doing what you ask, I wouldn't say he's doing this because he's saying you're a crap leader but trying to tell you that there's just simply not enough value in it and you have to find what he values the most in this world.....it may be something untraditional.

[wuffles]

There are probably a few things at play here...

The first is to remember that dogs don't generalise very well. If you teach them to sit in one place (eg. outside the door), they don't necessarily understand that the same command given in a different place (the lounge room) means the same thing. So there is definitely a chance that he does not actually understand what you want. It may be the fact that it's a different place, or your signal is different, or you are sitting down instead of standing up, etc.

Also, if you give multiple commands, sometimes the dog learns that it doesn't have to do it on the first command. This is common at obedience class... "Sit, sit, SIT, SIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT, good dog! Sit, sit, SIT, why won't my dog listen to me?????" ;)

In saying that, I do think that some dogs are more stubborn than others. My older boy tends to push the boundaries so we just have to make sure he doesn't get away with too much. Thankfully he is generally an easy dog to live with (lazy) so apart from practicing NILIF with him we don't really mind a missed command here and there - if it's important we ensure that he listens (eg. get out of our way) but otherwise he generally just gets ignored if he ignores us.

[persephone]

Does Max enjoy his food at mealtimes?

I suggest you try T O T

Also- if you think that a dog will not obey you -DON"T ask it to do anything ;) Every time you say 'sit',and max walks away ... that is what he's being trained to do .

How often do you do obedience training at home? They need to practise doing the RIGHT thing, to learn it ....

I have never used food or toys to train dogs .. our dogs only get praise/cuddles, etc when they do what is asked- so praise is worthy of their learning/obeying .....

- try to NOT praise your dog for just walking past, or looking cute ;)

I suggest you practise N I L I F, as well.

[megan_]

I ws going to reply about generalisation too. In order to really teach your dog what sits means, you need to teach him to sit outside, inside, when you're standing, behind you, when you're sitting, when they're 2m away, when someone else is in the room, you get the picture...

When I've properly taught my dogs something (in many different situations, many different times) then I expect them to follow.

What are the consequences if he doesn't listen to you?

[Nekhbet]

Lack of consistency and really, what incentive is there to work for you? If he doesn't listen whats the big deal.

He's an adult GSD now you need to 'boot camp' him a little if he's not interested in food dont feed him out of a bowl anymore.

[Leelaa17]

Thanks so much guys. I know that dogs learn things differently in different places. for example, jenna will obdeiently stay at the back door until I tell her she can come in but she wont stay anywhere else! lol

I don't give him consequences... he just doesn't get cuddles. he doesn't get pats etc if he doesnt do what I ask, when he DOES do what I ask, he gets a lot of praise and cuddles.

[persephone]

if he's not interested in food dont feed him out of a bowl anymore.

yep - food is something to be valued/worked for/ appreciated by using hunger/achievement as the 'gravy' ;)

[W Sibs]

Charlie can be like that.

He has never disobeyed me before, but that's because I've never let him have a chance too. But, he will make a show about doing it to let me know he doesn't want too but he has too. He will ever so S L O W L Y put his bum to the floor, then put in a huge sigh when he has done it, then looked up at me as though saying 'There. I've done it. Now what?!' (this is very very amusing to watch).

Why are you asking him to sit for? Do you mean it when you command him too sit?

[sas]

Thanks so much guys. I know that dogs learn things differently in different places. for example, jenna will obdeiently stay at the back door until I tell her she can come in but she wont stay anywhere else! lol

I don't give him consequences... he just doesn't get cuddles. he doesn't get pats etc if he doesnt do what I ask, when he DOES do what I ask, he gets a lot of praise and cuddles.

Perhaps he doesn't value those cuddles and that's why not getting them really doesn't matter to them.......not many dogs actually like the way their owners fawn all over them.

[persephone]

Perhaps he doesn't value those cuddles and that's why not getting them really doesn't matter to them.......not many dogs actually like the way their owners fawn all over them.

[Fatsofatsoman]

I don't know if this is relevant or even correct but - if you are sitting down are you about the same height as him? therefore putting you at his level so he sees himself equal? A lot of dogs I know only obey orders from people from a height i.e. standing up.

[Nekhbet]

I don't give him consequences... he just doesn't get cuddles. he doesn't get pats etc if he doesnt do what I ask, when he DOES do what I ask, he gets a lot of praise and cuddles.

OK ...

I ask you to vacuum the house. You say no. I say 'I'll keep this $2 I was going to give you'

what is your care factor? Extremely low. Because the value you see in the potential reward was low. Your dog is the same. Wow, dont get a cuddle, meh, whatever, moving on.

You have a male GSD. He needs his brain challenged which boils down to more then pat or no pat. Push the boundries with him, withold things he likes if you dont want to do anything else with him and get him revved up a bit.

If you cannot manage that join a dog club that can show you how. I love it when people bring me 'stubborn' or 'stupid' dogs and I have them working within a session. They're just unchallenged and nonchalant really.

I don't know if this is relevant or even correct but - if you are sitting down are you about the same height as him? therefore putting you at his level so he sees himself equal? A lot of dogs I know only obey orders from people from a height i.e. standing up.

That can come down to conditioning or the owners not being consistent and teaching the dog the only time you listen is when I get mad at you because thats the time I made you do it finally.

A dogs respect for its handler has nothing to do with height. I can lie on the floor and tell my dogs what to do.

It comes down to if the owner is consistent, follows through with training and commanding the animal and if the owner is chasing the dog to reward it instead of the dog working for it.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Leelaa17]

Charlie can be like that.

He has never disobeyed me before, but that's because I've never let him have a chance too. But, he will make a show about doing it to let me know he doesn't want too but he has too. He will ever so S L O W L Y put his bum to the floor, then put in a huge sigh when he has done it, then looked up at me as though saying 'There. I've done it. Now what?!' (this is very very amusing to watch).

Why are you asking him to sit for? Do you mean it when you command him too sit?

lol that is VERY cute!!!

and yes i mean it. I make him sit so he doesnt get in my face and lick me.

I don't know if this is relevant or even correct but - if you are sitting down are you about the same height as him? therefore putting you at his level so he sees himself equal? A lot of dogs I know only obey orders from people from a height i.e. standing up.

yep i am sitting down - he most of the time, listens to me when i am standing up... however if I am lying on the ground and I saw to max 'lie down' and tap the floor next to me, normally he does what I say.

I really appreciate all of your comments. thank you for all of your help!

[Jigsaw]

Stubbornness usually equates to the dog possibly not knowing what's asked or the reward or consequence is not relevant enough IME, so dog doesn't do the behaviour. Have you tried different contexts of asking him to "sit". He may only associate the command with certain behaviours on your part, ie standing at the back door or perhaps in the kitchen (where a lot of us do our initial training). Lying down and asking the dog to sit is very different to standing up straight and asking the dog to sit. Think about how different you would look to the dog! Make him work a little harder, make it more black and white for him so he understands better, if he does something right he gets his toy or treat, if not he doesn't get it and he doesn't get your attention either. If he values toys and treats more than pats and praise use these when training. Lastly practise in different places and in different positions.

[Kajtek]

I have 3 bulldogs

They are independent and generally work for payment aka treats/praise. If I continually fail to pay - they go deaf.

There is an interesting book "So your dog is not Lassie". It may help you understand your dog's "stubbornness"

[Leelaa17]

Stubbornness usually equates to the dog possibly not knowing what's asked or the reward or consequence is not relevant enough IME, so dog doesn't do the behaviour. Have you tried different contexts of asking him to "sit". He may only associate the command with certain behaviours on your part, ie standing at the back door or perhaps in the kitchen (where a lot of us do our initial training). Lying down and asking the dog to sit is very different to standing up straight and asking the dog to sit. Think about how different you would look to the dog! Make him work a little harder, make it more black and white for him so he understands better, if he does something right he gets his toy or treat, if not he doesn't get it and he doesn't get your attention either. If he values toys and treats more than pats and praise use these when training. Lastly practise in different places and in different positions.

Thanks very much jigsaw!

I will try some different things tonight and let you guys know how I go!

[Alyosha]

He will literally look at me like I am a fool if I ask him to do something... unless he REALLY wants something, he most of the time refuses to listen to me.

He's not a sighthound in disguise is he??

Seriously though, this is a normal reaction in a sighthound. I don't know if it will help at all, but the best way to train them is often subtley different to many other dog temperaments. Much more team oriented - ie. when you ask them to do something, they will immediately ask you "what's in it for me?". It's not dominance so much as independent thought. Which if you can get working for you, can be amazing. Like CW EW said, what is he working for?

They will work to please you, but maybe not just for a treat, reward phrase or pat on the head like some will. He might be looking for a deeper connection with you perhaps?

And yes, sighthounds also need some consequence, especially as they are very pack oriented and usually enjoy constructive leadership.

[Staranais]

I don't give him consequences... he just doesn't get cuddles. he doesn't get pats etc if he doesnt do what I ask, when he DOES do what I ask, he gets a lot of praise and cuddles.

OK ...

I ask you to vacuum the house. You say no. I say 'I'll keep this $2 I was going to give you'

what is your care factor? Extremely low. Because the value you see in the potential reward was low. Your dog is the same. Wow, dont get a cuddle, meh, whatever, moving on.

You have a male GSD. He needs his brain challenged which boils down to more then pat or no pat. Push the boundries with him, withold things he likes if you dont want to do anything else with him and get him revved up a bit.

If you cannot manage that join a dog club that can show you how. I love it when people bring me 'stubborn' or 'stupid' dogs and I have them working within a session. They're just unchallenged and nonchalant really.

That is some very good advice you just got from Nekhbet.

[persephone]

I don't give him consequences... he just doesn't get cuddles. he doesn't get pats etc if he doesnt do what I ask, when he DOES do what I ask, he gets a lot of praise and cuddles.

OK ...

I ask you to vacuum the house. You say no. I say 'I'll keep this $2 I was going to give you'

what is your care factor? Extremely low. Because the value you see in the potential reward was low. Your dog is the same. Wow, dont get a cuddle, meh, whatever, moving on.

You have a male GSD. He needs his brain challenged which boils down to more then pat or no pat. Push the boundries with him, withold things he likes if you dont want to do anything else with him and get him revved up a bit.

If you cannot manage that join a dog club that can show you how. I love it when people bring me 'stubborn' or 'stupid' dogs and I have them working within a session. They're just unchallenged and nonchalant really.

That is some very good advice you just got from Nekhbet.

Indeed it is