Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[huski]

Bullarab - IMHO it's not black and white like that. You can stuff your training up regardless of the tool or method you are using if you arent using it properly. I've seen people set their training back hugely "just" by using food rewards incorrectly. Never mind people I know who've been told they can ONLY use food with their dogs and no other methods apart from strict PR who have become disheartened when the method didn't work for their dog leading the owner to give up on training altogether. There is so much more to training than simple black and white view that only certain methods or tools can damage our dogs. Ignorance is what damages dogs IMO.

LOL also not sure about the speaking softly bit - anyone who has seen me rev my dog up in training wouldn't call it quiet

Edited September 13, 2011 by huski

[JoeK]

They did not say they wanted to trial the dog in Schutzhund or do protection? They have the dog they do, and are trying to improve its behaviour, you shouldn't go telling everyone they should reject their dog if they are having problems with it, which is how your posts come across. A Schutzhund club is more likely to be able to help them with reactive behaviour, and would have a good understanding of Malinois behaviour and drives. And you shouldn't automatically discount any tool which cannot be used in a trial situation - they can be very useful in helping to get a difficult dog under control.

You can't have any type of collar on your dog in some agility trials ;)

No, I tell you the same as I telling mr Jeff is the Schutzhund club is not behavior clinic and is not automatic the place to go to use the prong becuase many the Schutzhund club will be wanting no prongs on the pup also same as the obedience club the poster talk about. Dont be thinking becuase is common to see prongs on the working dogs the Schutzhund clubs all use prongs, they dont is my point here.

The poster say he has protection trained Malinois and do the KNPV already so why he at obedience club for the pets to argue the prong rules is making no sense to me?

Joe

[atua]

EVACUATE EVACUATE! Seriously, I know this club, I know who runs it and if I were you I wouldn't go back. You can't argue or debate with people like this and you won't be able to change their minds.

I agree with this comment

[Aidan3]

I didn't think the suggestion was to go to a SchH club so that a prong could be used, I thought it was because the OP has a working-line Malinois?

[Kavik]

Nobody said the Schutzhund club was a behaviour clinic (neither are obedience clubs) but the one I have been to was very helpful to people in a range of ways, not just for competition. People don't only come to clubs to polish their competition performance (though they may do that too). They may come with a new pup or a dog that needs to work through some peoblems, or need help with motivation etc. I was mainly saying that since Malinois are a popular breed choice for Schutzhund, there would likely be people at a Schutzhund club who would be able to help with problem behaviour as they would be experienced in the breed and its traits. Most clubs are there to help people, and enjoy helping people and their dogs, regardless of what stage their training is at.

[Aidan3]

since Malinois are a popular breed choice for Schutzhund, there would likely be people at a Schutzhund club who would be able to help with problem behaviour as they would be experienced in the breed and its traits. Most clubs are there to help people, and enjoy helping people and their dogs, regardless of what stage their training is at.

So JoeK keeps telling us, anyway

[Red Fox]

Read the meaning not the words!!

I did. And that quote to me, in the context that you posted, implies two things;

One, that you cannot teach a new behaviour via positive punishment.

And two, that this is the only way in which a prong collar (or check chain) can be used.

As I said, anyone who harshly and physically corrects (or "beats") their dog for something the dog does not understand is an idiot.

And prong collars have a multitude of uses beyond simple corrections for misbehaviour.

My views on prongs and check chains are the same. In the right hands, used the right way I am sure they work, are not that harsh and i am sure they produce reliable, consistent results I have seen some fantastic outcomes from good trainers. But what about the newby???? What about the bloke who picks up a book to learn or gets a tip off the net or goes to one or two classes but doesn't really understand? What about the guy who thinks the dog is an extension of his appendage or must be dominated?

The OP is not a newby. Prong collars are not easily accessable to those without a clue anyway.

Used incorrectly (intentionally or not) or used with malice the very least you can do with a check or prong is put the training back a bit, but continue to do it wrong even with the best intentions, or use it harshly and you can destroy a dog (physically and mentally)forever. If the newby gets it wrong with a treat and a clicker or with a treat and a key word the very worst they can do is train the wrong behaviour to the wrong signal. Most people can fix that given a little instruction and generally the dog is no (or very little) worse off. I know what way I would prefer to see people train.

Any tool used incorrectly can stuff up a dog, including a clicker. Any collar can be misused too - if you're an idiot.

[Red Fox]

Bullarab - IMHO it's not black and white like that. You can stuff your training up regardless of the tool or method you are using if you arent using it properly. I've seen people set their training back hugely "just" by using food rewards incorrectly. Never mind people I know who've been told they can ONLY use food with their dogs and no other methods apart from strict PR who have become disheartened when the method didn't work for their dog leading the owner to give up on training altogether. There is so much more to training than simple black and white view that only certain methods or tools can damage our dogs. Ignorance is what damages dogs IMO.

I agree Huski.

[Bull Arab]

Lets say figuratively a quiet voice (no one who knows me would call me or any of our dogs quiet) but I do use a much quieter voice on the horses than the dogs!

And I agree totally about only sticking to one method, depending on its job a dog that will only work for a treat may not be as effective as one that will work for a tuggie (if driving away from you ??). Would it not be better to use the reward that suits the dog (even a "yes" or a belly rub or acknowledgement if that’s what it takes) and the circumstance and the objective? This is where the "it takes time" comes into my argument because you may need to establish the relationship before you have a hope of finding out what works with some animals and it may be blatantly obvious with others, especially when they are bashing you in the leg with the tuggie!!! My point is aimed at what I would prefer the newby (was my self not that long ago) or the person who has the right intentions just doesn’t have the knowledge to use.

Bullarab - IMHO it's not black and white like that. You can stuff your training up regardless of the tool or method you are using if you arent using it properly. I've seen people set their training back hugely "just" by using food rewards incorrectly. Never mind people I know who've been told they can ONLY use food with their dogs and no other methods apart from strict PR who have become disheartened when the method didn't work for their dog leading the owner to give up on training altogether. There is so much more to training than simple black and white view that only certain methods or tools can damage our dogs. Ignorance is what damages dogs IMO.

LOL also not sure about the speaking softly bit - anyone who has seen me rev my dog up in training wouldn't call it quiet

[Staranais]

It sounds like you are trying to argue for people using rewards in their training, Bull Arab. I think you'll that most of us use reward extensively.

[huski]

I think it really comes down to using what method/tool is both appropriate and suitable for the dog and owner. There are methods that I would prefer to see people use but that may not be suitable for them and their dogs. IMO using a tug properly is a real skill and can actually be harder for some people than learning how to use a prong collar properly. What makes a method or tool hard or easy to apply really depends on the ability of the person using it and how effective it will be on their dog.

[JoeK]

Nobody said the Schutzhund club was a behaviour clinic (neither are obedience clubs) but the one I have been to was very helpful to people in a range of ways, not just for competition. People don't only come to clubs to polish their competition performance (though they may do that too). They may come with a new pup or a dog that needs to work through some peoblems, or need help with motivation etc. I was mainly saying that since Malinois are a popular breed choice for Schutzhund, there would likely be people at a Schutzhund club who would be able to help with problem behaviour as they would be experienced in the breed and its traits. Most clubs are there to help people, and enjoy helping people and their dogs, regardless of what stage their training is at.

If the Schutzhund clubs had the sense to help the sport growing, they would encourage owners of all the Schutzhund breeds offering wide range of activities to help people, but many dont unless you dedicated on the sport is why the clubs here having 10 members instead of 100. I speak to couple of people who the club tell there dog is no good for the sport to join obedience club is happening, is no wonder the Schutzhund is not growing here?

Joe

[Bull Arab]

Read the meaning not the words!!

I did. And that quote to me, in the context that you posted, implies two things;

One, that you cannot teach a new behaviour via positive punishment.

Please excuse my ignorance and this is meant as a learning point for me and that's all (not having a dig) but what is your definition of positive punishment? How can a punishment be positive? From there (at the risk of anthropomorphising) is the animal doing the behaviour because it wants to and it looks forward to what happens when it does, or is it because bad stuff might happen if it doesn't and therefore feels it has to?

[Staranais]

"Positive" in the context of dog training doesn't mean nice, it just means adding something to the situation. "Punishment" in the context of dog training doesn't necessarily mean something nasty or cruel, it just means that what you did caused a decrease in the behaviour. Positive punishment, when used by animal trainers, therefore means you have added something to the situation that has caused the preceding behaviour to decrease.

I used to have a good link that explained all the quadrants used by behaviourists, plus extinction, but can't find it now. Hopefully someone else will come to the rescue.

[Aidan3]

Positive punishment occurs when something is added (positive) that reduces or diminishes behaviour (punishment). By definition, you cannot teach a new behaviour via positive punishment.

You can teach a new behaviour via negative reinforcement and in some cases both actions occur. The prong correction is both a punisher and a reinforcer; it punishes (reduces) one response and reinforces (increases) another.

[Lablover]

"Positive" in the context of dog training doesn't mean nice, it just means adding something to the situation. "Punishment" in the context of dog training doesn't necessarily mean something nasty or cruel, it just means that what you did caused a decrease in the behaviour. Positive punishment, when used by animal trainers, therefore means you have added something to the situation that has caused the preceding behaviour to decrease.

Excellent.

Excellent.

Excellent.

[JoeK]

What I thinking is very stupid for abuse on the dog for people buying the prong and the ecollar are buying this tools for abuse, and thinking banning this tools fixes the abuse problems on the dog becuase my experience I see on then abuse is not done with collars is done with sticks and things nothing to with dog training tools. Banning the prong doesnt stopping broken ribs from owner booting the dog with the foot instead?

Someone comes to a club with a prong ok, the trainers should be teaching the person to use the prong properly not turn him away on the blind eye to stuff it up on his own without proper help. Is not responsible club to say piss off with you prong and claiming to being responsible club for the dogs best interests on my opinion. People intend on abusing dogs dont join obedience clubs and buy training tools they use lump of wood in the back yard and these clubs needing to encourage anyone who trying to train their dogs for the best of the dog and owner.

Joe

[Kavik]

Nobody said the Schutzhund club was a behaviour clinic (neither are obedience clubs) but the one I have been to was very helpful to people in a range of ways, not just for competition. People don't only come to clubs to polish their competition performance (though they may do that too). They may come with a new pup or a dog that needs to work through some peoblems, or need help with motivation etc. I was mainly saying that since Malinois are a popular breed choice for Schutzhund, there would likely be people at a Schutzhund club who would be able to help with problem behaviour as they would be experienced in the breed and its traits. Most clubs are there to help people, and enjoy helping people and their dogs, regardless of what stage their training is at.

If the Schutzhund clubs had the sense to help the sport growing, they would encourage owners of all the Schutzhund breeds offering wide range of activities to help people, but many dont unless you dedicated on the sport is why the clubs here having 10 members instead of 100. I speak to couple of people who the club tell there dog is no good for the sport to join obedience club is happening, is no wonder the Schutzhund is not growing here?

Joe

I only went a couple of times but found the club very helpful even though my dog would not be able to compete (non papered GSD, also not enough drive).

[Bull Arab]

Thanks very much for the explanation guys I understand the principals it was the definitions I was not familiar with. Negative reinforcement I understand and being a horse trainer use frequently, positive punishment I think we all use regularly (clap hands and use a loud 'NO' to break a behaviour such as barking at the chooks for e.g before redirecting to a more appropriate behaviour) so I do appreciate having a name for it!

Cheers

Edited September 13, 2011 by Bull Arab

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I don't think distracting a dog eg hand clapping is the same as yelling at it or hitting it (examples of positive punishment).

I confess I do hiss at and sometimes "oi" at my dog to interrupt a behaviour, and then follow that up with asking her to do something she enjoys and I can reward her for and that I find more appropriate than barking at high flying crows (for example). Just hope she doesn't back chain - do something naughty so I can do something fun.

Badly excuted reward based training is much easier to re-train and fix up than badly executed punishment based training, in my opinion. And I'm not all that co-ordinated with these things so I prefer to use the tools that are more forgiving on trainer and dog ie rewards and absence of rewards. Ie one badly delivered punishment (eg hitting or hurting a dog) can have long term fallout resulting in undesirable behaviour that is hard to fix. Especially if the dog fails to connect what it is doing that the trainer doesn't want, with the punishment. And you haven't taught the dog what you do want it to do instead by using punishment ie you're not increasing the behaviours you do want.