Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[corvus]

Loop tightens around muzzle when lead pulled, closing dog's mouth and pulling their head. I would think that would be uncomfortable, don't you?

I don't know, I'm not the dog wearing it. Is it more uncomfortable than coughing and choking because a collar is pressing into your trachea? Because I've known a few dogs perfectly happy to keep inflicting that on themselves, yet don't pull on a head collar. Does that mean head collars must be more aversive than throat irritation? I've seen dogs try to pull in a head collar and they just physically can't get any strength behind it. Seems to me they pull and find themselves facing the wrong direction. Then again, people on this forum are often saying dogs pull on head collars anyway. I know one that will if it can get its head down and push forward with its shoulders. So are they ineffective or aversive? No doubt, depends on how they are used. How do we know that there is necessarily discomfort to the point where it changes behaviour involved every time? There must be with a prong, or a flat collar or martingale would work just as well. There is no head collar comparison except perhaps if we want to bring horses into it.

Incidentally, some head collars are designed to pull the dog's head forward, thus engaging their opposition reflex and encouraging them to pull up. I suspect where the leash is held, the length of the leash, the fit and model of the head collar, and whether collars/harnesses are used as well as the head collar all have an impact on how aversive the head collar may be. I'm not willing to make blanket statements about them (and this isn't one, in case anyone was going "But, but!").

[gsdog2]

krustie

Many dogs find the headcollar aversive just sitting on their face loose (many try to scratch it off)

Well, I think that falls under the heading of "improper use". If I can get a dog that hates his head being restrained to come running for his eye drops every 3 hours, I think most dogs can be taught to like a head collar.

That's not really a valid comparison. Having your muzzle held for a minute or less to apply eye drops is different to a dog having to wear a head collar for a prolonged period of time.

I can go on but this is OT...

I agree - I have a Goldie that literally shuts down whenever I put a headcollar on him. I took him to a trainer I have a lot of respect for and when she suggested the headcollar I decided to try it. After me trying everything she suggested we both agreed he was NEVER going to move while wearing a headcollar.

I also have a German Shepherd that would run a mile before allowing me to put drops in her very painful ears. With a lot of effort on my part I am now able to put those drops in her ears and give them a quick massage - this took a lot of work but certainly no comparison to my poor Goldie and his dislike of the headcollar.

Just putting the headcollar on my Goldie (who loves food and knows exactly what a click means) meant that he just droppped to the ground and wouldn't move - no matter what I tried

[krustie22]

ive seen videos of susan garrett training her pup with regards to using a gentle leader head collar. she attaches so much reinforcement to the collar that the pup thinks "the collar game" is fun.

IMO any dog that will not work with a head collar on just has not been conditioned to do so. this means it takes time to condition rather than just putting it on and expecting results.

[Cosmolo]

In theory, it is possible to classically condition anything to have positive value, with any dog. The question is whether or not the number of repetitions required over the time frame required is practical/ possible. If a dog required 2000 repetitions or 3 months work to get used to a piece of training equipment- is this practical given the owner clearly has a problem now. There are lots of reasons why the number of repetitions required might be out of reach too- its not about handler laziness.

[davidthedogman]

Ok everyone here is the state of play I will post the email and my response to the ANKC. I must say I am dismayed at the lack of reply...

There is nothing in the Animal abuse ACT / Or any QLD state regulations, the RSPCA is a body like anyone else, and does have the power to make law.

I have asked several times now for clarification of the equipment rule in judging, still not reply. The person I sent this to did not even respond to me, she punted it Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not going away so I hope they do answer.

Andrew thankyou for your reply. I have found the rule in the judging section, but the way I read this is, it would be an unfair advantage in competition if used, it says nothing RE: Training. I look forward to your reply.

David Sweeney

Dave,

It is an ANKC regulation and can be found in the Obedience Rules. I am pretty sure you will also find it in the RSPCA and State Government regulations.

Kind Regards

Andrew Robinson

Dogs Queensland

PO Box 495

Fortitude Valley

Qld 4006

Phone (07) 3252 2661

Fax (07) 3252 3864

Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au

----- Original Message -----

From: Roslyn Glancy

To: Andrew Robinson

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:19 AM

Subject: Fw: general enquiry

Kind Regards

Roslyn Glancy

Dogs Queensland

PO Box 495

Fortitude Valley

Qld 4006

Phone (07) 3252 2661

Fax (07) 3252 3864

Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au

----- Original Message -----

From: David & Janelle

To: [email protected]

Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 8:35 PM

Subject: general enquiry

At training Friday 9/9/2011 near the end of training I was approached by the club President, and asked to remove the pinch collar I was using. I asked why, and he stated it was against CCCQ rules. I have searched your rules, and cannot find any evidence of this, could you if in fact, such a rule exists, please inform me of same.

Dave Sweeney

[Dracdog]

Just a quick question did you have permission to post the email? Not truing to stir anything up I thought you needed permission to post emails

[davidthedogman]

I am an equal party to the email, there is nothing in the email that is of a sensitive nature, and emails are not classed the same as mail. My point of posting it is to show how slow the cogs turn, especially when I have a legitimate question, based on their rules. Currently as I write this, there is still no reply from a professional body, to an easy question.

This tells me one of two things. I'm correct or they refuse to answer, by posting here in a public forum, my hope is they will now want to be shown in a positive light.

Remember at the start of this thread, well now I have their rule, which they are all quoting, and it clearly states in trials.... Now I was asked to remove the pinch in training. I have no desire to go to trials, mere;y a desire to soc my dog in a safe manner for all, now some here may think I am flogging a dead horse or what is the point, the point is clearly these people have been caught out and I want them to acknowledge the rule they are trying to wrongly enforce.

Not hard really.

[JulesP]

If they didn't have the rule written in their club rules I am sure they do by now. The individual club can make it a rule regardless of state rules.

My club doesn't allow check chains (unless you are assessed ok to use one) but they aren't banned by the state body.

[davidthedogman]

If they didn't have the rule written in their club rules I am sure they do by now. The individual club can make it a rule regardless of state rules.

My club doesn't allow check chains (unless you are assessed ok to use one) but they aren't banned by the state body.

Jules I think the biggest problem is, people!!!! Look at the dog, they meet, decide in a nano second friend or foe, then they sniff bums and wag tails like crazy. What a self centered egotistical lot we humans are, dogs must look at us and say. YOU have issues serious issues hah hah

[JulesP]

If they didn't have the rule written in their club rules I am sure they do by now. The individual club can make it a rule regardless of state rules.

My club doesn't allow check chains (unless you are assessed ok to use one) but they aren't banned by the state body.

Jules I think the biggest problem is, people!!!! Look at the dog, they meet, decide in a nano second friend or foe, then they sniff bums and wag tails like crazy. What a self centered egotistical lot we humans are, dogs must look at us and say. YOU have issues serious issues hah hah

Well there is your problem you didn't sniff bums.

[BC4ME]

If they didn't have the rule written in their club rules I am sure they do by now. The individual club can make it a rule regardless of state rules.

My club doesn't allow check chains (unless you are assessed ok to use one) but they aren't banned by the state body.

Jules I think the biggest problem is, people!!!! Look at the dog, they meet, decide in a nano second friend or foe, then they sniff bums and wag tails like crazy. What a self centered egotistical lot we humans are, dogs must look at us and say. YOU have issues serious issues hah hah

Well there is your problem you didn't sniff bums.

:rofl:

[Skye GSD]

David - I am watching this thread with interest. I, too, train with a pinch/prong collar on my reactive GSD. Compared to where we were six months ago her behaviour is beyond belief and the comments we get on the street is testiment to the training we have put in. Tomorrow is D-day and back to a club environment (new club I might add) where handlers only attend the first session. I have done foundation work on the fringes of the training area with great success but believe they will only accept haltis/flat collars/martingales and check chains. Also believe that there is a varied approach to training with new-age and old-age trainers so keen to find out more.

[JoeK]

I am an equal party to the email, there is nothing in the email that is of a sensitive nature, and emails are not classed the same as mail. My point of posting it is to show how slow the cogs turn, especially when I have a legitimate question, based on their rules. Currently as I write this, there is still no reply from a professional body, to an easy question.

This tells me one of two things. I'm correct or they refuse to answer, by posting here in a public forum, my hope is they will now want to be shown in a positive light.

Remember at the start of this thread, well now I have their rule, which they are all quoting, and it clearly states in trials.... Now I was asked to remove the pinch in training. I have no desire to go to trials, mere;y a desire to soc my dog in a safe manner for all, now some here may think I am flogging a dead horse or what is the point, the point is clearly these people have been caught out and I want them to acknowledge the rule they are trying to wrongly enforce.

Not hard really.

If is rule on the club, the ruling should be in the constitute or the bylaw where minutes of the meeting show this rule was passed and the member should have the right to be shown the rule if not then cant be enforcing rule thats not a proper rule becuase making up the rule as they go along is not proper process for the clubs. If was me and they dont show the rule, I ignore them and keep training, what they going to do, call the police becuase you dont leave the field?

Joe

[davidthedogman]

Here is the latest reply. Am I that dumb that I cannot see the words in their rules?

Andrew am I going around in circles with this?

Official Ruling (All dogs must have a slip or fixed collar which fits only the dog's neck and which must remain on the dog

at all times. No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control shall be permitted )

Your rule, where does it say cruelty? It clearly states “ No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control”

That’s it, nothing about cruelty at all.

So in all fairness to my question, please advise of where the wording of Cruelty is?

Dave

From: Andrew Robinson

Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:51 AM

To: [email protected]

Subject: Fw: general enquiry

David,

Below is a copy of the email sent to you on Tuesday

Kind Regards

Andrew Robinson

Dogs Queensland

PO Box 495

Fortitude Valley

Qld 4006

Phone (07) 3252 2661

Fax (07) 3252 3864

Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au

----- Original Message -----

From: Andrew Robinson

To: David

Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: general enquiry

The head collars (Halties ect) are seen as giving an advantage. Pronged or Pinch collars are seen as an act of Cruelty and is there for against our policies

Kind Regards

Andrew Robinson

Dogs Queensland

PO Box 495

Fortitude Valley

Qld 4006

Phone (07) 3252 2661

Fax (07) 3252 3864

Website www.dogsqueensland.org.au