davidthedogman Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Tonight I was asked to leave the obedience class at Logan Allbreeds for using a pinch collar. I was told it was against the rules of the club, the CCCQ as well. I said that I had trained here several years before with a pinch and there was never a problem. The President firmly stated to me it was against the club and control council rules. I politely asked to view the rule, to which I was told it was not in writing but it was a rule???? I asked several times to be shown this very important rule, to no avail, having come home I have read all the CCCQ and ANKC and every QLD State act and guess what??? I cannot find any rules governing this??? What is the answer? I have always been under the impression that rules / laws of clubs must be in existence not just spoken into reality, anyone help me on this please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I was under the understanding that they were not allowed at ANKC affiliated clubs at all? Never actually seen it writing though but then I have never actually looked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 It is written into the DogsSA constitution as a reportable offense Piper. Not sure what other states have in theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Yep no CCCQ affiliated clubs can use prongs or e-collars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Yep no CCCQ affiliated clubs can use prongs or e-collars. Where does it say that in writing please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Yep no ANKC affiliated clubs allow the use of prong or e collars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Had it happen to me in Sydney also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 Folks I do not want opinions. I want to be pointed to the rule in writing, as I will challenge this in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 It's a discussion forum. If you don't want opinions best not to post on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 You would be best to contact the ANKC or CCCQ direct about getting it in writing. I know they all have their knickers in a twist about it. Good on you for standing up for being able to use them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 When I joined the WA canine association I remember there was a blurb about not using any physical punishment to correct the dog at any ANKC event, maybe it falls under that? I will dig it out to find the exact wording after more caffeine has been consumed. I did RSPCA basic obedience courses (since they were being held closest to me) and they were very clear in the first lesson that no chokers or similar were to be used or you would be asked to leave. It wasn't in writing but I am sure they would've enforced it. IANAL but I can't imagine a court would hear a case like this, it's their club, their rules whether written or verbal (like a pub having the right to refuse service to any individual). (BTW I have no personal opinions on pinch collars, but I've never been at a club where I think they would be accepted without at least some comments) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 I have spoken with a Barrister friend of mine, he has also read all the PDF's from both bodies, hie learned advice is thus, it is not put into print or published as it is not lawfully supported by a Government Act,he further states any body that would try and impinge another's tights with respect to the use of equipment, used by Government Departments would in all probability fail in court. So the way I understand it is they cannot force you to do anything just because they say so. I'm going back to logan on Monday night and try again. It's not up to me to prove the rule it's up to them..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 9, 2011 Author Share Posted September 9, 2011 When I joined the WA canine association I remember there was a blurb about not using any physical punishment to correct the dog at any ANKC event, maybe it falls under that? I will dig it out to find the exact wording after more caffeine has been consumed. I did RSPCA basic obedience courses (since they were being held closest to me) and they were very clear in the first lesson that no chokers or similar were to be used or you would be asked to leave. It wasn't in writing but I am sure they would've enforced it. IANAL but I can't imagine a court would hear a case like this, it's their club, their rules whether written or verbal (like a pub having the right to refuse service to any individual). (BTW I have no personal opinions on pinch collars, but I've never been at a club where I think they would be accepted without at least some comments) Liquor Lic Act in QLD clearly states codes, dress for certain area's in establishments is one of those. I completely understand what you say, but this man was adamant it was a RULE. I just asked to be shown the rule out of courtesy. I at no time raised my voice or got up from my sitting position from the ground. Unlike him whom got very agitated that I would ask such a dumb question, and you know, mybe this is a case that should go before a court, if people want to make it up on the fly. I strongly disagree, that is a form of bullying. Anyway thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/207277-prong-collar-query/ Apparently it was published in the Dogs QLD journal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Folks I do not want opinions. I want to be pointed to the rule in writing, as I will challenge this in court. Seriously? I know this is an emotive issue, but if you don't like the methods that a club uses/allows wouldn't you just move on to another training organisation where it is welcome in preference to upsetting everyone? We see this type of advice on here time and time again, why not just take it? You could actually bankrupt the club by going down that path which would be a lot worse for the larger community than you having to find somewhere else to use your chose training method. FTR - personally, I don't like the idea of prong collars, but that doesnt' mean I don't want anyone to use them when there is a need/desire for them to be used properly. Others don't like me playing with my dog in obedience classes to keep them motivated - I have left those clubs and found an environment I do like training in. Like Nekhbet said though - contact the CCCQ if you really feel that strongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) I have spoken with a Barrister friend of mine, he has also read all the PDF's from both bodies, hie learned advice is thus, it is not put into print or published as it is not lawfully supported by a Government Act,he further states any body that would try and impinge another's tights with respect to the use of equipment, used by Government Departments would in all probability fail in court. So the way I understand it is they cannot force you to do anything just because they say so. I'm going back to logan on Monday night and try again. It's not up to me to prove the rule it's up to them..... But I didn't think they were trying to force you to do something so much as just not letting you use their facilities (including instructors and the space they have rented) at their discretion? Which I would think is within their rights as they are providing a service. I expect if you rocked up drunk they would ask you to leave too, even though it probably isn't written you have to be sober to handle a dog. I didn't understand the bit about government departments, but then I rarely understand anything lawyers say ETA: sorry I don't know why I am making all these booze analogies this morning, especially since it's not even 8am here in WA Edited September 9, 2011 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) IMO it's uneducated and illogical of them to dis-allow prongs or ecollars but allow check chains and head collars (if that is what they are doing). But, it is their club, and I think you will find that they are allowed to set the rules that way if they care to do so. Just like some clubs don't allow clickers, or squeaky toys, or bitches in heat, or check chains, at training - it's their club, so I think they're allowed to set their own rules. ETA, I do agree that the rules they make should be written down properly, so that new members know what they are! Edited September 9, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 It is their club and they can decide what training equipment to allow on dogs they train there. Might be best to find a club which allows them? Which could be difficult. Personally I know of only 1 club that allows them and they are obviously not ANKC affiliated. Suing may not only not work (pretty sure they can decide these rules) but if it does you are always going tp be fighting them, does not make for a good start to the relatioinship. Is there no way you could train without one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Folks I do not want opinions. I want to be pointed to the rule in writing, as I will challenge this in court. Seriously? I know this is an emotive issue, but if you don't like the methods that a club uses/allows wouldn't you just move on to another training organisation where it is welcome in preference to upsetting everyone? We see this type of advice on here time and time again, why not just take it? You could actually bankrupt the club by going down that path which would be a lot worse for the larger community than you having to find somewhere else to use your chose training method. FTR - personally, I don't like the idea of prong collars, but that doesnt' mean I don't want anyone to use them when there is a need/desire for them to be used properly. Others don't like me playing with my dog in obedience classes to keep them motivated - I have left those clubs and found an environment I do like training in. Like Nekhbet said though - contact the CCCQ if you really feel that strongly. You honestly think it is ok for someone to enforce something that does not exist??? this is a stretch but history is full of people turning a blind eye. Here is the history. We inherited a Malinois 6mth Female, with no soc done at all, she even freaked at her own shadow, the idea after I have obedience trained her which I have, was to let her meet other dogs and people, and accept they were not trying to hurt her, the check chain on her is uselessness, her level of discomfort is near the moon, a haltey would have caused neck injury, and a check throat injury, my choice was the pinch. I have been using this collar on her for two weeks, and she works very well on it, no problems at all. So here I am at a club where all these fogs are being dragged around, on check chain and being injured, here is me minding my own and having a great time until, a rule that does not exist but it the rule and must be enforced stops the game. I get balled out in from of 20 people and like a good boy I quietly state my case, while the club president acts like a dill????? Was i annoyed for being balled out? no I was annoyed for not being shown a stupid rule that does not exist. SHOW ME THE RULE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 What about training at a Schutzhund club? Probably in a better position to help you anyway. given the breed and your circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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