Aggressive Dog

[jacqui835]

Oh wow, the longest we ever went was when I was unwell, maybe 4 days without a walk and we paid high prices for that - the dog ate the couch that had been in our backyard since we moved to Adelaide (we couldn't get it in the house so it became Sammy's outside bed). And when I say ate, I mean dragged the sitting cushions onto the lawn (and I can barely lift them btw) and completely dismembered them - I have a video of the disaster that was our backyard stored somewhere... So we try to make sure he gets a good run every 2nd or 3rd day. I think the other thing is that my dog is left alone for 8+ hours a day whilst I'm at work - that's probably a key factor right there. But I do notice on weekends and holidays, he is just a much easier dog to manage when he's tired. But his parents work all day every day so we expected him to have high energy levels.

Sammy doesn't really seem to notice his backpack, but we love it because now when we go bush walking Sammy carries everything - phones, water, food, keys, weights lol.

[Poppy's mum]

Yikes, I can't believe these obviously aggressive dogs get taken to dog parks where they "alpha roll" other dogs... Then again, I can. One of my harmless JRT crosses was rolled by a massive golden retriever cross standard poodle when walking off lead, at heel in the dog park. The owner said "oh, he does that but it's alright, he never hurts them". I was too stunned to reply. NOT ALRIGHT. NEVER ALRIGHT. NOT IN THE DOG PARK. NOT IN CLASS. NOT WALKING IN THE STREET. NEVER !!!

ETA sorry, sudden rush of blood to the head. I'm still very angry years later

Edited November 9, 2011 by Ginger's mum

[huski]

jacqui835 what kind of mental exercise does you dog get?

[jacqui835]

jacqui835 what kind of mental exercise does you dog get?

Training every day - a couple of short sessions where we practice his growing trick repertoire - he learns new words very quickly, but then also we're almost always in training because we are always asking him to behave in a certain way etc, formal obedience twice a week (Sammy was in grade 5 with the SAODC - the level before trialing) and lure coursing now every 2nd sunday. All the usual stuff like sitting and waiting for food, leash walks around the block to practice heeling daily in addition to actual exercise, and other more abstract training exercises like sitting with me at cafes for breakfast on the weekends - which is great because there are heaps of people and heaps of dogs that bark at him and he just ignores it all. However just last night I joined the dogsports club - and finally I think we have found something that both Sammy and I can really get into. We will now be doing obedience, tracking and maybe even some schutzhund.

These other people with working dogs keep them crated like all the time when they're not working because of the high drive and instead of doing that with Sammy, well we just try and keep him occupied all the time. I have a young male dog from a working family and with high drives - he causes no problems so long as he is well exercised and has jobs to do. And I'm a very active, sporty person so I wouldn't want a different sort of a dog, I would be disappointed if I got tired before my dog did...

I don't really get why everyone seems to be weirded out by this - at lure coursing we met with a couple of people from these forums who said it was great that we recognised that we owned a working dog who needed to be taken out to these sorts of things to be happy and fulfilled - it's in his blood. I just thought that if the german shepherd was anything like the GSD's I have seen at this new club, or anything like my dog, well walks around the block on lead would not be enough.

[megan_]

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

[raineth]

I don't really get why everyone seems to be weirded out by this - at lure coursing we met with a couple of people from these forums who said it was great that we recognised that we owned a working dog who needed to be taken out to these sorts of things to be happy and fulfilled - it's in his blood. I just thought that if the german shepherd was anything like the GSD's I have seen at this new club, or anything like my dog, well walks around the block on lead would not be enough.

not weirded out, I just thought I'd share some info that you might not have thought about

[jacqui835]

I don't really get why everyone seems to be weirded out by this - at lure coursing we met with a couple of people from these forums who said it was great that we recognised that we owned a working dog who needed to be taken out to these sorts of things to be happy and fulfilled - it's in his blood. I just thought that if the german shepherd was anything like the GSD's I have seen at this new club, or anything like my dog, well walks around the block on lead would not be enough.

not weirded out, I just thought I'd share some info that you might not have thought about

Oh sorry I must have misinterepreted you. I just thought people were trying to say that I must be doing something wrong if my dog wants a lot of exercise, and that walks on a lead should be enough. I know I'm definitely not doing everything right but I do know that my dog and I seem to have a pretty good thing going when he's satisfied and well exercised.

Apologies, I love these forums because of all the new things I learn but it is hard sometimes over the internet to see everything the way the writers intended it to be perceived...

[dee lee]

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

Yes, exactly.

I think we got off track, the comments below are the contentious ones for me.

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy....

....I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

ETA- I'm not having a go at you jacqui835, its just that I have had the unfortunate experience of owning a high energy DA dog and feel strongly that they should never be offlead.

Trust me, I wished and wished I could change that, but ultimately I had to take responsibility for never placing my dog in the situation where she could hurt another dog.

Edited November 10, 2011 by dee lee

[huski]

Oh sorry I must have misinterepreted you. I just thought people were trying to say that I must be doing something wrong if my dog wants a lot of exercise, and that walks on a lead should be enough. I know I'm definitely not doing everything right but I do know that my dog and I seem to have a pretty good thing going when he's satisfied and well exercised.

Apologies, I love these forums because of all the new things I learn but it is hard sometimes over the internet to see everything the way the writers intended it to be perceived...

Not at all, in fact I wouldn't expect a WL dog to be worn out easily through exercise. At the end of the day, exercise will just make the dogs fitter and stronger which means they will require more and more in order to get tired. I think it's great you are joining a working club, as IMO mental exercise and working our dogs is a far better way to tire them out than physical exercise.

[jacqui835]

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

Yes, exactly.

I think we got off track, the comments below are the contentious ones for me.

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy....

....I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

Well I still stand by those comments, especially now that I've had some exposure to other working dogs. My dog would not be a pleasant dog to own if the only exercise he got was what I could provide from walks on lead. But I've never met this particular GSD and for all I know, it could be one from very relaxed lines and be perfectly content with a walk around the block so my bad for making assumptions based on the breed alone.

[jacqui835]

Oh sorry I must have misinterepreted you. I just thought people were trying to say that I must be doing something wrong if my dog wants a lot of exercise, and that walks on a lead should be enough. I know I'm definitely not doing everything right but I do know that my dog and I seem to have a pretty good thing going when he's satisfied and well exercised.

Apologies, I love these forums because of all the new things I learn but it is hard sometimes over the internet to see everything the way the writers intended it to be perceived...

Not at all, in fact I wouldn't expect a WL dog to be worn out easily through exercise. At the end of the day, exercise will just make the dogs fitter and stronger which means they will require more and more in order to get tired. I think it's great you are joining a working club, as IMO mental exercise and working our dogs is a far better way to tire them out than physical exercise.

Well the dog is working physically though, like there's a lot of running and jumping and playing to build drive. My dog was never tired from obedience classes, maybe if we were learning new stuff all the time... I don't know I never really teach him more than one or two new tricks at a time and from that he doesn't seem to be tired. I had to do exercise before obedience classes otherwise he would play up a bit and everyone could tell when I hadn't. Sammy was either the star performer or a little shit. Now maybe I'm not doing things right but like I said before, when he's well exercised and had a chance to do a couple of crazy sprints and stretch his legs (sometimes he bounds with happiness and throws his front legs around like a baby deer - something that has to be seen to be understood), well we're ready to shoot for the stars.

[Kavik]

Well the dog is working physically though, like there's a lot of running and jumping and playing to build drive. My dog was never tired from obedience classes, maybe if we were learning new stuff all the time... I don't know I never really teach him more than one or two new tricks at a time and from that he doesn't seem to be tired. I had to do exercise before obedience classes otherwise he would play up a bit and everyone could tell when I hadn't. Sammy was either the star performer or a little shit. Now maybe I'm not doing things right but like I said before, when he's well exercised and had a chance to do a couple of crazy sprints and stretch his legs (sometimes he bounds with happiness and throws his front legs around like a baby deer - something that has to be seen to be understood), well we're ready to shoot for the stars.

Imagine how he would be if all that energy/focus that you used up beforehand was put into your obedience

In regards to exercise - there is a lot you can do even in the yard. Just did a good training session with the dogs :D even if a bit warm (with a baby you take what you can get when they nap ). We did relationship games, shadow handling, drive/tug work, contacts, tight turns groundwork, pivot work, backup, ladder. There is even more you can do for obedience - I do mostly agility. And on lead on walks there is a lot of training you can do to tire them out besides just running. Random recalls, tricks, balancing on logs/rocks, drop on the move (good practice for emergency drop), shadow handling for agility, backup etc.

[persephone]

The point is though... that no matter whether the dog is relaxed or high drive , if it is AGGRESSIVE to other dogs when off leash..then, to avoid incident it needs to be walked/trained/run/swam ON LEASH...either temporarily, until the problem is addressed - or otherwise.

It's simple

[jacqui835]

The point is though... that no matter whether the dog is relaxed or high drive , if it is AGGRESSIVE to other dogs when off leash..then, to avoid incident it needs to be walked/trained/run/swam ON LEASH...either temporarily, until the problem is addressed - or otherwise.

It's simple

Won't argue with that.

[aussielover]

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

Yes, exactly.

I think we got off track, the comments below are the contentious ones for me.

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy....

....I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

Well I still stand by those comments, especially now that I've had some exposure to other working dogs. My dog would not be a pleasant dog to own if the only exercise he got was what I could provide from walks on lead. But I've never met this particular GSD and for all I know, it could be one from very relaxed lines and be perfectly content with a walk around the block so my bad for making assumptions based on the breed alone.

But your dog isn't aggressive.

I don't think leash walks only would cut it for many working breeds, working line or not. Dogs need the opportunity to run around and burn some energy whether they are lap dogs or working line kelpies who can run over 60km a day. I actually don't think hard exercise is necessarily the answer (although obviously adequate stimulation and exercise is required) and can actually make the situation worse- the dog gets fitter and you get into a vicious cycle of the dog needing ever increasing amounts of exercise to keep it satisfied- I know this from experience with my own dog .

I don't think many people with working breeds would actually be capable of completely tiring out their dogs

However, an aggressive dog should never be let off the leash unless the owner has full control of it- even then it could attack an approaching dog, so on the whole people are trying to say its safer NOT to let DA dogs off leash.

It is a catch-22 situation because the less exercise they get the more frustrated they may get which can increase aggression. Then you really have to look at your capabilities and willingness to work with the dog (and a ehaviourist) and perhaps make a hard decision about quality of life for both you and the dog

[dee lee]

The point is though... that no matter whether the dog is relaxed or high drive , if it is AGGRESSIVE to other dogs when off leash..then, to avoid incident it needs to be walked/trained/run/swam ON LEASH...either temporarily, until the problem is addressed - or otherwise.

It's simple

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

Yes, exactly.

I think we got off track, the comments below are the contentious ones for me.

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy....

....I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

Well I still stand by those comments, especially now that I've had some exposure to other working dogs. My dog would not be a pleasant dog to own if the only exercise he got was what I could provide from walks on lead. But I've never met this particular GSD and for all I know, it could be one from very relaxed lines and be perfectly content with a walk around the block so my bad for making assumptions based on the breed alone.

But your dog isn't aggressive.

I don't think leash walks only would cut it for many working breeds, working line or not. Dogs need the opportunity to run around and burn some energy whether they are lap dogs or working line kelpies who can run over 60km a day. I actually don't think hard exercise is necessarily the answer (although obviously adequate stimulation and exercise is required) and can actually make the situation worse- the dog gets fitter and you get into a vicious cycle of the dog needing ever increasing amounts of exercise to keep it satisfied- I know this from experience with my own dog .

I don't think many people with working breeds would actually be capable of completely tiring out their dogs

However, an aggressive dog should never be let off the leash unless the owner has full control of it- even then it could attack an approaching dog, so on the whole people are trying to say its safer NOT to let DA dogs off leash.

It is a catch-22 situation because the less exercise they get the more frustrated they may get which can increase aggression. Then you really have to look at your capabilities and willingness to work with the dog (and a ehaviourist) and perhaps make a hard decision about quality of life for both you and the dog

[jacqui835]

I don't see anyone saying that walks on a leash are all a w/l dog needs. Rather, letting them off leash on public land with other dogs (and putting them and their owners - who could get hurt trying to save them - at risk) is the answer.

If you own a DA dog you need to put in lots and lots and lots and lots of effort to find safe ways to give your dog the outlet that it needs. Putting other dogs at risk is just the lazy option.

Yes, exactly.

I think we got off track, the comments below are the contentious ones for me.

This would be impossible for me. For people who own working breeds, even a 2 hour walk on the leash doesn't begin to drain their energy....

....I do not walk my dog on the leash to drain his energy, I can't not walk fast enough or for long enough to do that.

This is a difficult situation, but given the dog is still relatively young and subsequently energetic, I don't think leash walking will cut it.

Well I still stand by those comments, especially now that I've had some exposure to other working dogs. My dog would not be a pleasant dog to own if the only exercise he got was what I could provide from walks on lead. But I've never met this particular GSD and for all I know, it could be one from very relaxed lines and be perfectly content with a walk around the block so my bad for making assumptions based on the breed alone.

But your dog isn't aggressive.

I don't think leash walks only would cut it for many working breeds, working line or not. Dogs need the opportunity to run around and burn some energy whether they are lap dogs or working line kelpies who can run over 60km a day. I actually don't think hard exercise is necessarily the answer (although obviously adequate stimulation and exercise is required) and can actually make the situation worse- the dog gets fitter and you get into a vicious cycle of the dog needing ever increasing amounts of exercise to keep it satisfied- I know this from experience with my own dog .

I don't think many people with working breeds would actually be capable of completely tiring out their dogs

However, an aggressive dog should never be let off the leash unless the owner has full control of it- even then it could attack an approaching dog, so on the whole people are trying to say its safer NOT to let DA dogs off leash.

It is a catch-22 situation because the less exercise they get the more frustrated they may get which can increase aggression. Then you really have to look at your capabilities and willingness to work with the dog (and a ehaviourist) and perhaps make a hard decision about quality of life for both you and the dog

He was at one stage, between 7-9 months he wanted to fight other large males. Broke up with all his male friends and I seriously considered desexing him. It was only the fact that Buddha (do you remember the large aggressive GSD at Centennial Park?) had the same problem, was desexed and months later nothing had changed. So I decided to try other methods and fortunately Sammy is fine today.

But totally ot and I do agree with what you're saying, it's not a good situation

[RL1]

If your dog is aggressive towards other dogs, there is no way you should be going to a dog park!

Get help from a trainer or behaviourist for the aggressive behaviour. Until then you just have to suck it up and walk on lead only. It is not fair on others or your dog to expose them to aggressive behaviour. For a run around, do they know anyone with some space where the dog can run every now and again?

And I do have a dog aggro dog, so I know how it feels. I wish I had gotten proper help MUCH earlier with my dog.

Here is someone they could try (for the Sydney person)

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

What wouldn't hurt is to do some focus exercises so they can get the dog's attention back on them when it sees another dog.

Thanks for that, I think the focus thing could help them with the other problem too I think they already looked up that website and were going to meet the fellow that runs it. I will remind her about following it up.

I'd forget anyone else and just see the above trainer at k9pro. He's the only trainer i took my dog to see that had any idea what to do. I tried home visits, weekly private class, live in boarding ect, RAAF trainers, Dog Tech ect. Only k9pro had helpful ideas how to improve the situation and suitable collars/leash ect.

I took on my large male Rottweiler at about 3 who had been bashed badly by his previous owner. So i know what it's like to own a difficult dog. It's just something i've had to learn to live with.

Edited November 12, 2011 by RL1

[Erny]

Haven't read every post but the ones I have read seem to be somewhat focussed on physical exercise being the major factor that needs consideration. I don't think I read any posts from the OP that talked about mental stimulation.

IMO, mental stimulation and drive satisfaction is the highest priority and that needs to be structured so that it channels in towards and for the handler. It's great to give our dogs the opportunity to stretch their legs and run, and if we can organise to do that where it is safe for everyone (dogs inclusive) that's great. But the other will tire them out more readily and for longer than mere physical exertion and with careful structure can be utilised to improve problematic behaviour.

Don't muck around - engage a trainer/behaviourist. Mark Singer (if in SA). Steve Courtney (if in NSW).

Edited November 16, 2011 by Erny