ursus Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Does anybody know a coach in Sydney area who uses Koehler's training system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freundhund Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 NO, Koehler's training methods have been out of fashion for so long, I don't think anyone uses it anymore. Also you can achieve far better results using the modern motivational methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Oh, Gosh .. Koehler .. that takes me back 30 or so years ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 go here - http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/ and email Tony Ancheta, if anyone knows of a trainer in Sydney, Tony might. You'll be very lucky though to find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Why do you want to use Koehler's system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) Why do you want to use Koehler's system? The result of motivational/positive methods - delivered by two coaches and one dog behaviorist - with my previous dog resulted in her being put down, due to aggression. One coach, a celebrity mind you, said that the dog will never be let off the leash in her life, no matter how much training we put into her. This, in my opinion, (and having to eventually kill the dog) is more cruel than using corrections. in spite of the fact that the behaviorist could not do anything with the dog, when I asked her about electronic collar she firmly stated that she will report me to authorities if she finds out I use one. I am not set on any particular system, I just want to get "both sides of the story", to see results of something different from what could not prevent my dog from being put down. What got my interest is the avalanche of good reviews of Koehler's book on the Amazon, as well as reviews relating to the use of electronic collars. I believe Sit Means Sit school in the USA, run by Fred Hassen, is based on Koehler's method. Apparently they have a franchise in Brisbane. Edited December 9, 2011 by ursus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 There are quite a few folks on D O L who use/have used e-collars , and there are excellent trainers/behaviourists who recommend them for use when appropriate . There are also 'corrections' and corrections. One does not have to follow Koehler to the letter , these days, with more information, and the availability of technology . You might get some help from these threads LINK LINK LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Does your current dog have aggression issues as well? There are trainers that use corrections without using Keohler's system - it is possible to combine the use of rewards and the use of corrections if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 If you are going to use the Koehler Method, the chances are you will have to do it alone as I doubt there are many, if any, trainers left still using the method in Australia. It can be done, so long as you follow the book exactly as instructed. If you decide to go it alone, you should get in contact with Tony Ancheta and get hold of his Companion Dog Planners. Tony has over 30+ years of experience in using the Method and trained with both Bill and Dick Koehler. Tony will also give you whatever help you need via email. Otherwise from what you said regarding your previous dog, there are other trainers in Sydney that could have helped you with your previous dog. I would recommend looking up Steve Courtney at K9 Pro (he has a website). He has dealt with aggression problems and is an excellent trainer. His methods aren't Koehler, but he uses corrections where appropriate. Check him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks for the feedback, everyone. The main reason I am asking about koehler's method is that I want to get an idea about as many methods as possible before settling on something definite. I think the best training system is the one you're comfortable with. My miniature Bull Terrier is a sweet little puppy, 3.5 months old. At this stage I am training her using mostly games, treats and praise. From the age of about 6 months I want to start a structured program that includes all methods of conditioning, reward and correction. I want to make one thing clear: corrections do not equal abuse or cruelty. Frankly, how many parents have never physically punished their kids? However, occasional "hiding" does not mean physical abuse. Corrections should not be the substitute for a properly administered program. The same is true for e-collars: they should be used in addition to the traditional training, and only when required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 6 months I want to start a structured program that includes all methods of conditioning, reward and correction The Koehler Method will certainly provide you with that. However, occasional "hiding" does not mean physical abuse. I am however, a little concerned with this statement. So long as your puppy is well raised and does not come to training with any serious behavioral issues, there is no 'occasional hidings' in Koehler. Follow the method exactly as written, and you will find no reason to give your dog a 'hiding'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 From what I know about Bull Terriers, you need a sense of humour with their training, I'm not sure they are a breed that would be brought to their best using such a traditional, corrections based training system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Kavik, why do you say correction "based" method? What reason do you have saying that its "basis" is correction? Surely you would not say that any method that simply uses correction is therefore based on corrections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Ursus, so sorry to hear about your situation. If you don't mind, would you share with us the actual situation which led to the need to put your dog to sleep ie. did she get into a fight and seriously injure or kill another dog?? Was it dog aggression or human aggression? And was it diagnosed as fear based or anything else? It's unfortunate that you were not able to find the right trainer to help you with the situation. A trainer with a more 'balanced' approach may have been able to assist you in rehabiliting your dog. But you must remember that aggression can take anything up to 18 months to get it to a stage where the dog can be comfortable around other dogs or people. It's about applying a systematic desensitisation process, accompanied by handling techniques that will teach you how to handle your dog in difficult situations as well as teaching your dog the appropriate actions so that he/she makes the right decisions based on what she is feeling. It's not about applying a heap of corrections and supressing behaviour as this will cause further issues for you. Based on the information you provide and the fact that you needed to put your dog to sleep, it would seem you were given correct advice that your dog may not have been trustworthy off lead, but again this would depend on if she possesed any social skills to start with as well as being able to befriend another dog during the course of rehabilitation. The only bit of advice I can safely provide you via a forum is to seek a good balanced trainer for your new pup so that they may assist you with all aspects of creating the dog you want. If you are in NSW, then perhaps pay Steve Courtney from K9 Pro a visit (or call him) to see if he can help you or at least point you into the right direction. Good luck with it....but please don't go to the opposite extreme to seek your answers for the perfect dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 If you raise a dog properly and socialise and start basic training early, there should be no need for the "occasional hiding". Teaching commands like "off", "leave it" and "drop it" will go a long way in preventing the need for punishment. I'm not against training with corrections when there is a need, I just don't think there really is a need all that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 However, occasional "hiding" does not mean physical abuse. I am however, a little concerned with this statement. So long as your puppy is well raised and does not come to training with any serious behavioral issues, there is no 'occasional hidings' in Koehler. Follow the method exactly as written, and you will find no reason to give your dog a 'hiding'. Please don't take the word out of context. I mean the use of corrections for dogs, not punishment execution style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Kavik, why do you say correction "based" method? What reason do you have saying that its "basis" is correction? Surely you would not say that any method that simply uses correction is therefore based on corrections? I stated in an above post that I have no problem with methods that use corrections as well as rewards, but Koehler is pretty heavy handed in his use of corrections, including in teaching new exercises. If I had a Bull Terrier I would look for a trainer who can get good results with non traditional obedience breeds. If looking for a trainer who uses both rewards and if necessary corrections, I agree with Kelpie-i that K9Pro would be a good person to contact for training in NSW. He does have a complete package/system for his training if that is what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursus Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Kelpie-i, it wasn't the aggression in its pure sense. Let me give you an example. She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by. She could not normally play with other dogs: the intensity was the same with small poodles as it was with staffies or German Sheppards. She was pulling on the leash (including the Gentle Leader), so that after every walk my left shoulder was hrobbing. She was a rather large American Bulldog and could cause considerable damage. The last straw was her going after a person carrying a small poodle, biting him on the hand. Thankfully, the person turned out to be a dog coach (and his wife a dog behaviorist) and was very understanding. After this episode we eventually decided to put her down, which was very traumatic. Her behavior was attributed to anxiety. I am not exclusively blaming coaches and the behaviorist working with her, as the dog probably had problems all along. My problem is that - in my opinion - not all possible methods were used with her. From what I have read e-collar could solve some of the problems. I am not going to the opposite extreme and be nasty to my dog (which I adore), I just want to find a coach who uses all modalities of training. I am not aiming at winning obedience competitions with my Bull Terrier, I want her to reliably perform important commands, so that I can take her for a walk and not be paranoid all the time that she will scare a child or chase a cat across a busy road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 (edited) From your last post, sounds more like unguided, misdirected prey drive - chasing and biting at moving objects. Am Bulldogs can have a decent amount of prey drive. Also remember that this dog may not be like your last dog, may not have the same temperament or issues and may not require the same training. I know it is hard to get past it when you have had a difficult time with the last dog. Edited December 9, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 She would run after a jogger or a cyclist and bite their hands. She would jump at cars passing by. I am wondering how she was able to do this ? Did you let her free-run because she was such a pain to walk on lead? Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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