Bsl Solution

[GeckoTree]

The way I see it BSL as a solution to dog bite and attacks by a race of canine, is a simpelton idiots view to solving a problem steeped in the belief of emotional reaction with payed lip service, not with a genuine concern for the community in general nor an animals welfare at heart.

Canine mismanagement by a very few people comparatively compared to actual dog numbers of a breed owned buy knowledgeable dog savvy responsible people, is not a justification.

Of course one can not dismiss a complete lack of enforcement of practical animal husbandry and management practices at a local and community social level.

If BSL is a solution it means this solution is sold by nothing more than snake oil salesmen, and does not work on a symptom at all.

If governments local state or federal were genuinely concerned they would look at the cause to treat a symptom such is done in medicine, it is glaringly obvious to all but a simpelton kow tower what that cause of the symptom is.

Lets try and get the laws right next vote. Because lets face it, it's mostly dogs innocent of any actual "penalty unit" incursion paying the high price of incarceration and death.

I know most in the non dog owning population don't give a flying capital F about it, but they should. They have to live in the world they create.

And dog lovers supporting it well what can I say, you are not a dog lover. It's as Simple as that.

J.

Edited June 25, 2012 by GeckoTree

[sumosmum]

Totally agree. Well said.

[sandgrubber]

My heart agrees, and the absurd Vic dangerous dog laws are worthy of ridicule (if not obscenities); but when I look at the statistics for what happens to APBT's in the US (where they dominate shelters and rescue populations and account for 60% of the dogs euthanized in shelters), I wonder if Oz hasn't done the right thing by imposing import bans. See, eg., recent blog entry at www.astraean.com/borderwars/

Edited June 26, 2012 by sandgrubber

[melzawelza]

But sandgrubber, 'pit bull' over there also includes SBT and AST. Include those under the banner of 'pit bull' here and we'd probably have the same stats in our shelters.

[GeckoTree]

TBH looking at the Vic standards of APBT ID which mentions no x's in any part of it, I don't think its about apbt at all, only in a lip service, which has so far netted no results of verified APBT dogs, what my eyes see is actual amstaffs who don't have paperwork, I mean just compare the Vic standard to the ANKC standard pictorial, it is absolutely identical. Just look at it. That and multi mix breed mutts of no APBT heritage.

Tragic Victoria. Hang your head in shame.

[m-sass]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

[Tazar]

I have met some beautiful, gentle Amstafs and Pits and don't think BSL is the answer. Destroying innocent pets is wrong, very wrong.

However, what I find difficult is that these breeds or this breed, depending on how you look at it, does not behave the way other breeds do, namely they give no warning signs before attacking. Not saying that they all attack but if they do - no growl, no smiling, no stiffening of the front legs or body, or hackles raised, no change in body language whatsoever. Scarey, scary stuff.....

Maybe phase the breed out and only licensed people should be allowed to own one. Another can of worms I know, all people should have a license to own a dog but that is another story (like we want the Govt to control anything else in our lives). It is so hard as there will always be those bstrd pigs that want them to fight each other and it will go underground like it used to be. That IS what they were bred for in the first place.

I don't have the answers, I wish I did.... the bad ones are just so very bad.......

[melzawelza]

^^ Sorry Tazar, but where did you get this information from? It's a complete myth that put bulls or bull breeds do not give warning signs before attacks. The same myth was applied to the dobermann back in the day when everyone was scared of them. It's not true and never has been. All dogs show signs before they attack, the problem is the humans that don't recognize them.

M-sass... BSL existed in Vic at the time that Ayen Chol was killed. The dogs were already restricted but the Council had no idea the dog existed. So tell me again how BSL would have saved Ayen Chol?

[Tazar]

Melzalwela my friend, who is an extremely competent and switched on dog trainer was attacked recently as a training session was about to start. This trainer was watching this dog like a hawk and said there were no signs whatsoever, nothing and I believe what was said and have seen the horrific scars. The owners were in total disbelief that their dog would behave like this.

Have you been given warning signs by this breed and avoided being attacked? What where the signs? Have you witnessed the signs prior to an attack on some one else?

To the untrained eye subtle things would not be noticed, even bleeding obvious things people seem to miss.

Researching the breed does suggest that it gives no warning signs either. Maybe some do, but the point I am making is that some don't. The one who attacked my friend didn't and as far as the dog was concerned it was just some one who was in it owners home, had been for about 15 minutes before it came in to say hi. Could have been anyone they invited to their home. If it was not the trainer who remained calm as possible but a child, that child would be dead!

Just to be clear I am not saying ALL of this breed are like this and do not agree with BSL.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Tazer, what you're saying is bullshit, finished.

[m-sass]

M-sass... BSL existed in Vic at the time that Ayen Chol was killed. The dogs were already restricted but the Council had no idea the dog existed. So tell me again how BSL would have saved Ayen Chol?

Of course the BSL law doesn't work if it's not policed........same as speeding and drink driving would be without radar, cameras and RBT's, so what are you prescribing then, because the BSL laws are not policed effectively, may as well drop the law in that case??.

The GSD and Rottweiler are renowned and iconic breeds capable of training to attack humans and guard property and the breed especially the GSD is largely represented in the community, collectively the two breeds out number restricted breeds by a county mile, however they rarely feature in serious attacks and given the amount of them out there, there are bound to be morons who own them too, so what's the difference in the fact that most of the serious attacks or deaths are not caused by GSD's & Rottweilers to the extent that they are caused by some Bull come Mastiff variety??

In my experience it's in the genetics of the breed, a reason why professionals in the K9 security business don't use Bull type breeds as their brain power, trainability and potential handler control is vastly limited in comparison.........do you know how much specialised training is required for a GSD, Rottweiler or a Belgian Malinois to do a building search and apprehend an offender??, Ayen's killer did that without training and sadly took down an innocent toddler..........brainless moron of a dog it was, it didn't know the difference between passive and threat in it's unfocused rampage, neither could it stay on target, the dog went from chasing someone else then redirected onto poor little Ayen, the dog was a peice of shit genetically, a crafted piece of excellence configured by a mixture of breeds in a BYB program.....wonderful NOT.

If the donkey owner of that dog wanted some K9 protection and deterrent factor in the home and got a proper dog from a proper breeder experienced at configuring correct genetic factors in proper breeds that can defend when "NECESSARY" with a clear head, poor little Ayen's life wouldn't have been wasted like it was IMHO........sure it was the owners fault for allowing the dog to get out, but once out the machinery to kill was in the dog's make up, a fact that too many anti BSL activists choose to ignor.

Edited June 28, 2012 by m-sass

[Tazar]

Lo Pan WOW unfortunately for the trainer and the dog involved it is not bullshit as you so eliquently put it. It happened.

[Cat]

1340844533[/url]' post='5880048']

M-sass... BSL existed in Vic at the time that Ayen Chol was killed. The dogs were already restricted but the Council had no idea the dog existed. So tell me again how BSL would have saved Ayen Chol?

Of course the BSL law doesn't work if it's not policed........same as speeding and drink driving would be without radar, cameras and RBT's, so what are you prescribing then, because the BSL laws are not policed effectively, may as well drop the law in that case??.

The GSD and Rottweiler are renowned and iconic breeds capable of training to attack humans and guard property and the breed especially the GSD is largely represented in the community, collectively the two breeds out number restricted breeds by a county mile, however they rarely feature in serious attacks and given the amount of them out there, there are bound to be morons who own them too, so what's the difference in the fact that most of the serious attacks or deaths are not caused by GSD's & Rottweilers to the extent that they are caused by some Bull come Mastiff variety??

In my experience it's in the genetics of the breed, a reason why professionals in the K9 security business don't use Bull type breeds as their brain power, trainability and potential handler control is vastly limited in comparison.........do you know how much specialised training is required for a GSD, Rottweiler or a Belgian Malinois to do a building search and apprehend an offender??, Ayen's killer did that without training and sadly took down an innocent toddler..........brainless moron of a dog it was, it didn't know the difference between passive and threat in it's unfocused rampage, neither could it stay on target, the dog went from chasing someone else then redirected onto poor little Ayen, the dog was a peice of shit genetically, a crafted piece of excellence configured by a mixture of breeds in a BYB program.....wonderful NOT.

If the donkey owner of that dog wanted some K9 protection and deterrent factor in the home and got a proper dog from a proper breeder experienced at configuring correct genetic factors in proper breeds that can defend when "NECESSARY" with a clear head, poor little Ayen's life wouldn't have been wasted like it was IMHO........sure it was the owners fault for allowing the dog to get out, but once out the machinery to kill was in the dog's make up, a fact that too many anti BSL activists choose to ignor.

How do you know it was because of its genetic make up and not because of the way it was trained or if it had been abused?

So are you saying we should get rid of mastiffs as well?

Edited June 28, 2012 by Cat

[melzawelza]

I'm out of this thread. Like Lo Pan said, way too much bullshit that to be honest I'm sick of arguing.

[m-sass]

1340844533[/url]' post='5880048']

M-sass... BSL existed in Vic at the time that Ayen Chol was killed. The dogs were already restricted but the Council had no idea the dog existed. So tell me again how BSL would have saved Ayen Chol?

Of course the BSL law doesn't work if it's not policed........same as speeding and drink driving would be without radar, cameras and RBT's, so what are you prescribing then, because the BSL laws are not policed effectively, may as well drop the law in that case??.

The GSD and Rottweiler are renowned and iconic breeds capable of training to attack humans and guard property and the breed especially the GSD is largely represented in the community, collectively the two breeds out number restricted breeds by a county mile, however they rarely feature in serious attacks and given the amount of them out there, there are bound to be morons who own them too, so what's the difference in the fact that most of the serious attacks or deaths are not caused by GSD's & Rottweilers to the extent that they are caused by some Bull come Mastiff variety??

In my experience it's in the genetics of the breed, a reason why professionals in the K9 security business don't use Bull type breeds as their brain power, trainability and potential handler control is vastly limited in comparison.........do you know how much specialised training is required for a GSD, Rottweiler or a Belgian Malinois to do a building search and apprehend an offender??, Ayen's killer did that without training and sadly took down an innocent toddler..........brainless moron of a dog it was, it didn't know the difference between passive and threat in it's unfocused rampage, neither could it stay on target, the dog went from chasing someone else then redirected onto poor little Ayen, the dog was a peice of shit genetically, a crafted piece of excellence configured by a mixture of breeds in a BYB program.....wonderful NOT.

If the donkey owner of that dog wanted some K9 protection and deterrent factor in the home and got a proper dog from a proper breeder experienced at configuring correct genetic factors in proper breeds that can defend when "NECESSARY" with a clear head, poor little Ayen's life wouldn't have been wasted like it was IMHO........sure it was the owners fault for allowing the dog to get out, but once out the machinery to kill was in the dog's make up, a fact that too many anti BSL activists choose to ignor.

How do you know it was because of its genetic make up and not because of the way it was trained or if it had been abused?

So are you saying we should get rid of mastiffs as well?

The dog has to have the genetic make up to attack and fight in the first place whether that result be from training, abuse or whatever otherwise under pressure the dog will flee or remain neutral to pressure. A dog with a default behaviour towards active aggression (social aggression) or defence aggression (fear aggression) is a genetic behaviour........noted in the Ayen case, the owner couldn't get the dog to release either meaning that the dog was not clear headed in the fight, in other words just a nutcase who lost the plot in aggressive rage.

[Dame Aussie]

I'm out of this thread. Like Lo Pan said, way too much bullshit that to be honest I'm sick of arguing.

I didn't even bother getting involved in the first place :laugh:

[Dame Aussie]

All that Australia has done with BSL is adopted other countries breed lists from around the world as most BSL breed lists globally are much the same. We would never know if BSL reduces bite statistics here unless we had the full range of restricted breeds in plentiful supply to determine the damage they caused if any. Having said that though, I would be confident to say that littel Ayen would still be alive if the owners of the dog who killed her had a Standard Poodle, Labrador or GSD instead of the dog they had??

Have to comment here though....you seriously think a Lab or GSD couldn't attack and kill a child?

Attitudes like yours are the reason other breeds DO attack children, we don't need to worry 'cause it's a Lab, it wouldn't hurt a fly right?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Aussie3

[Dame Aussie]

M-sass... BSL existed in Vic at the time that Ayen Chol was killed. The dogs were already restricted but the Council had no idea the dog existed. So tell me again how BSL would have saved Ayen Chol?

Of course the BSL law doesn't work if it's not policed........same as speeding and drink driving would be without radar, cameras and RBT's, so what are you prescribing then, because the BSL laws are not policed effectively, may as well drop the law in that case??.

The GSD and Rottweiler are renowned and iconic breeds capable of training to attack humans and guard property and the breed especially the GSD is largely represented in the community, collectively the two breeds out number restricted breeds by a county mile, however they rarely feature in serious attacks and given the amount of them out there, there are bound to be morons who own them too, so what's the difference in the fact that most of the serious attacks or deaths are not caused by GSD's & Rottweilers to the extent that they are caused by some Bull come Mastiff variety??

In my experience it's in the genetics of the breed, a reason why professionals in the K9 security business don't use Bull type breeds as their brain power, trainability and potential handler control is vastly limited in comparison.........do you know how much specialised training is required for a GSD, Rottweiler or a Belgian Malinois to do a building search and apprehend an offender??, Ayen's killer did that without training and sadly took down an innocent toddler..........brainless moron of a dog it was, it didn't know the difference between passive and threat in it's unfocused rampage, neither could it stay on target, the dog went from chasing someone else then redirected onto poor little Ayen, the dog was a peice of shit genetically, a crafted piece of excellence configured by a mixture of breeds in a BYB program.....wonderful NOT.

If the donkey owner of that dog wanted some K9 protection and deterrent factor in the home and got a proper dog from a proper breeder experienced at configuring correct genetic factors in proper breeds that can defend when "NECESSARY" with a clear head, poor little Ayen's life wouldn't have been wasted like it was IMHO........sure it was the owners fault for allowing the dog to get out, but once out the machinery to kill was in the dog's make up, a fact that too many anti BSL activists choose to ignor.

You are aware that Pit Bulls were used in many cases as search and rescue dogs in the past?

Also, that they were never bred to be aggressive towards humans, exactly the opposite?

Why do you always mention Mastiffs? Mastiffs are not included in BSL and are nothing like a Pit Bull so I'm unsure as to why you consistently bring them into this discussion?

[m-sass]

I'm out of this thread. Like Lo Pan said, way too much bullshit that to be honest I'm sick of arguing.

I didn't even bother getting involved in the first place :laugh:

Probably why the anti BSL crusades are not working when the activists too quickly run out of valid debate.

[Dame Aussie]

I'm out of this thread. Like Lo Pan said, way too much bullshit that to be honest I'm sick of arguing.

I didn't even bother getting involved in the first place :laugh:

Probably why the anti BSL crusades are not working when the activists too quickly run out of valid debate.

:laugh: Sure, sure, just like saying certain breeds of dog can't hurt children, that's valid.