Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Without Health Issues.

[Blackdogs]

Well perhaps now Black Dog you best start another post asking about a different breed of dog that might be better suited for your Mother, that hopefully has no genetic health issues at all , or not as many as the bad ones that have been used as examples in here..

As you can see I am very passionate about this breed of dog ! I would have a third one in a heart beat if the situation arose, and I would once again buy from a breeder that has a good reputation and well respected

Hope you find something perfect for your Mother. All the best :)

I'm not really sure I want another breed for my mother. I think a Cav would suit her perfectly. I just really want to know what my chances are of obtaining a healthy one. Everyone here has conflicting opinions, which I kind of expected, but was more (perhaps naively) hoping to discover relatively disease free lines.

Thanks for your well wishes. :)

[georgesmum]

Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope.

I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here.

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that:

- It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing)

- (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying)

- Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives

- Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20.

- I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart.

end sarcasm.

[julesluvscavs]

Well there are healthy Cavs and unhealthy ones (as said in here by different people), as with most breeds of dogs

We can only try our best to find the healthiest ones out there, going about it by what has been suggested in here several times :)

There's no guarantees given with anything in life, with either with humans and animals..

If it still concerns why don't you go to some Cavalier club fun days in your state (if they have one) with your Mum, and talk and mingle with the pet owners that go to them. You will see heaps of very happy owners and Cavaliers with waggily tails. They also some times do talks on keeping your cavalier healthy :)

Edited July 20, 2012 by Jules♥Cavs

[mita]

And where is all this???? In the human race.

If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface.

I rest my case.[/font][/size]

Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh:

The thread subject line would indeed look odd...and totally unrealistic... if it referred to humans. 'Where could you find a human without health issues?'

One difference in the purebred dog breeding world, is the nature of the decision-making for breeding with certain dogs....and also the shorter life- spans for the results to play out in lifetimes.

I have an article from The Australian in which a researcher into human health at a leading Australian University, praised the process of purebred dog breeding as providing useful material for the work of his research centre. Why? Because many health problems are common to both humans and dogs. For the researcher, the problems are easier to track across depth and breadth of pedigree in dogs.....and the shorter life spans allowed them to see any genetic influences at work in what is controlled breeding.

Interesting book just published, Zoobiquity: What Animals Can Teach Us About Being Human picks up the point that there's much to be gained from making connections between animal and human medicine (written by a cardiologist, Barbara Natterson Horowitz)). Apparently there's a joke that a doctor is just a vet who can only treat one species. :)

Edited July 20, 2012 by mita

[Blackdogs]

Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope.

I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here.

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that:

- It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing)

- (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying)

- Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives

- Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20.

- I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart.

end sarcasm.

- I didn't ask you to claim there would never be any genetic issues with future pups, but wanted to know if there had been any genetic issues with dogs you had bred so far. Some breeders do give guarantees that if anything genetic crops up they will replace the dog free of charge. That shows a level of certainty in their breeding. I don't think you can ever guarantee that there won't be some throw-back or anomaly.

- Well, I'm not sure why that defensiveness is directed towards me considering I'm not sure I've made a single claim in the entire thread.

- I'm not interested in lies, I'm looking for the truth. This isn't a personal attack. I'm not sure how I can get you to understand this.

- I would prefer to buy from a breeder who could discuss my concerns and answer my questions without sarcasm.

[LizT]

And where is all this???? In the human race.

If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface.

I rest my case.[/font][/size]

Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh:

The thread subject line would indeed look odd...and totally unrealistic... if it referred to humans. 'Where could you find a human without health issues?'

One difference in the purebred dog breeding world, is the nature of the decision-making for breeding with certain dogs....and also the shorter life- spans for the results to play out in lifetimes.

I have an article from The Australian in which a researcher into human health at a leading Australian University, praised the process of purebred dog breeding as providing useful material for the work of his research centre. Why? Because many health problems are common to both humans and dogs. For the researcher, the problems were easier to track across depth and breadth of pedigree in dogs.....and the shorter life spans allowed them to see any genetic influences at work in what is controlled breeding. For well-informed dog breeders, it means an increasing pool of information to guide their decisions re which dogs to breed with.

Interesting book just published, Zoobiquity: What Animals Can Teach Us About Being Human picks up the point that there's much to be gained from making connections between animal and human medicine (written by a cardiologist). Apparently there's a joke that a doctor is just a vet who can only treat one species. :)

Hmmm.. I've pondered this at times and really wouldn't you think humans would be a damn side more healthier than they are given the amount of "Hybrid Vigour" in our races?

[LizT]

Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope.

I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here.

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that:

- It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing)

- (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying)

- Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives

- Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20.

- I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart.

end sarcasm.

- I didn't ask you to claim there would never be any genetic issues with future pups, but wanted to know if there had been any genetic issues with dogs you had bred so far. Some breeders do give guarantees that if anything genetic crops up they will replace the dog free of charge. That shows a level of certainty in their breeding. I don't think you can ever guarantee that there won't be some throw-back or anomaly.

- Well, I'm not sure why that defensiveness is directed towards me considering I'm not sure I've made a single claim in the entire thread.

- I'm not interested in lies, I'm looking for the truth. This isn't a personal attack. I'm not sure how I can get you to understand this.

- I would prefer to buy from a breeder who could discuss my concerns and answer my questions without sarcasm.

I think it also depends on what you call a "Genetic Issue". Many breeds of dogs are born with hernias, if you bought a pup that turned out to have a hernia would you want a refund? Or like most have it repaired when the pup is desexed? A once off simple procedure with no ongoing health issues. Especially since the dog is not being bred from.

[mita]

One difference in the purebred dog breeding world, is the nature of the decision-making for breeding with certain dogs....and also the shorter life- spans for the results to play out in lifetimes.

I have an article from The Australian in which a researcher into human health at a leading Australian University, praised the process of purebred dog breeding as providing useful material for the work of his research centre.

Hmmm.. I've pondered this at times and really wouldn't you think humans would be a damn side more healthier than they are given the amount of "Hybrid Vigour" in our races?

Nice one, LizT. :)

In fact, the researcher praised the role that the controlled breeding in purebred dogs can have, in advancing knowledge that profits both canine and human medicine.

Interesting quote from a review of 'Zoobiquity'

"Cancer...is not just a modern disease caused by bad diet and environmental toxins but something found all over the animal kingdom, even in dinosuars. Wherever there is replicating DNA, there is the potential for harmful as well as adaptive random mutation.'

Edited July 20, 2012 by mita

[Blackdogs]

And where is all this???? In the human race.

If we did half the testing on humans that we do on dogs we would not even scratch the surface.

I rest my case.[/font][/size]

Me thinks a couple of readers were probably getting a bit excited for a moment, there :laugh:

The thread subject line would indeed look odd...and totally unrealistic... if it referred to humans. 'Where could you find a human without health issues?'

One difference in the purebred dog breeding world, is the nature of the decision-making for breeding with certain dogs....and also the shorter life- spans for the results to play out in lifetimes.

I have an article from The Australian in which a researcher into human health at a leading Australian University, praised the process of purebred dog breeding as providing useful material for the work of his research centre. Why? Because many health problems are common to both humans and dogs. For the researcher, the problems are easier to track across depth and breadth of pedigree in dogs.....and the shorter life spans allowed them to see any genetic influences at work in what is controlled breeding.

Interesting book just published, Zoobiquity: What Animals Can Teach Us About Being Human picks up the point that there's much to be gained from making connections between animal and human medicine (written by a cardiologist, Barbara Natterson Horowitz)). Apparently there's a joke that a doctor is just a vet who can only treat one species. :)

I don't think you have to look as far as another species when talking about what we should expect in terms of genetics. Take the humble Kelpie for example. The breed has very few inherited issues and of the ones they do have, incidences are rare. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm hoping for hope.

[Blackdogs]

Secretly, what I really wanted you to say was "I've had none in my lines". Then I would investigate you as a potential breeder from whom to purchase a puppy in the future. Though, I am glad that you haven't had many problems. It gives me hope.

I understand people are defensive in the wake of 'those' documentaries, but I really don't think that attitude helps. I don't see why breeders can't just admit there are issues within a breed and that they're doing everything they can to rectify them without getting angry about it or feeling vilified. Maybe I'm missing something from the other side of the fence here.

I think you may have missed a number of posts in this thread. Somewhere in this thread (the authors may find them themselves and quote) are posts which state that:

- It would be irresponsible of any breeder to claim there are no genetic problems in their lines, and if they did so, they either have their head in the sand or have no idea (paraphrasing)

- (I'll add that breeders which make that claim are lying)

- Sure, breeders become defensive in the face of negative publicity, including forums such as this when someone comes online making all sorts of blanket claims about the breed they love, and to which they have devoted their lives

- Over the years, I've seen a number of potential buyers, with the attitude of expecting the genetically perfect pup, end up with one from a puppy farmer who told them all the lies under the sun (see my second point above), only to spend a lot of money at the vet, and then badmouth the breed. Not the shonky breeder they bought from, but the breed. Not their poor choice and the fact that they couldn't accept that there is no such thing as a genetically perfect breed, but the breed. If you want a genetically perfect breed, K-Mart sells them for about $20.

- I don't have any puppies, so healthy or not, there is nothing for you. Except at K-Mart.

end sarcasm.

- I didn't ask you to claim there would never be any genetic issues with future pups, but wanted to know if there had been any genetic issues with dogs you had bred so far. Some breeders do give guarantees that if anything genetic crops up they will replace the dog free of charge. That shows a level of certainty in their breeding. I don't think you can ever guarantee that there won't be some throw-back or anomaly.

- Well, I'm not sure why that defensiveness is directed towards me considering I'm not sure I've made a single claim in the entire thread.

- I'm not interested in lies, I'm looking for the truth. This isn't a personal attack. I'm not sure how I can get you to understand this.

- I would prefer to buy from a breeder who could discuss my concerns and answer my questions without sarcasm.

I think it also depends on what you call a "Genetic Issue". Many breeds of dogs are born with hernias, if you bought a pup that turned out to have a hernia would you want a refund? Or like most have it repaired when the pup is desexed? A once off simple procedure with no ongoing health issues. Especially since the dog is not being bred from.

Well no, I'm not concerned with minor issues in a breed that has major issues. My Schipp had an numbilical hernia when I purchased her and I was fine with just getting that repaired.

[Blackdogs]

Well there are healthy Cavs and unhealthy ones (as said in here by different people), as with most breeds of dogs

We can only try our best to find the healthiest ones out there, going about it by what has been suggested in here several times :)

There's no guarantees given with anything in life, with either with humans and animals..

If it still concerns why don't you go to some Cavalier club fun days in your state (if they have one) with your Mum, and talk and mingle with the pet owners that go to them. You will see heaps of very happy owners and Cavaliers with waggily tails. They also some times do talks on keeping your cavalier healthy :)

I think I'll take you up on your last suggestion when the time comes. :) So many Cavs all in one place would surely leave the rest of the planet barren of love. :D

[Jed]

Some of the issues in Cavaliers may not be totally hereditary. I consider MVD the worst of the problems - and the mode of inheritance is not known. It is known that feeding raw food, is beneficial, and may avoid heart problems, because the raw strengthens the connective tissue in the heart. So a raw diet may avoid, or reduce any incidence of MVD. And despite research, the mode of inheritance is still not known. It is obviously a recessive gene and could be autosomal.

Current recommenation is to use dogs which do not develop early murmurs, and that means not mating at 18 months. If the dog has a murmur at 7 or 8, but is not on medication, nor affected that is seen as ok - not ideal for breeding, but ok for pets because the murmur is causing no problems.

SM, from anyone's point of view, is a complete nightmare. Having two parents which are Graded A does not guarantee a clear pup. Some dogs with SM are affected by air pressure, and some are affected by other things. Some have symptoms, and no clinical signs on MRI. Some have chiari malformations, and no sm. Some have sm, quite bad on MRI, but the dog has no symptoms.

Buy from someone with old ancestors hanging around. Soneone ethical and registered.

I recently sold a pup to people who previously bought from a pet shop. The pup developed renal problems, cost them $K4 and had to be pts at 17 months. When they came to see my pups they saw the mother, the father, the auntie, the grandfather, and the great-grandmother, who is 12. I can't guarantee that pup will be healthy for life, but there are no hereditary nasties lurking there.

All I can do is breed from healthy dogs; I can't guarantee good health for life, but that is what I aim for.

I do believe strongly that feeding, food and general care plays a very large part in the health or otherwise of dogs. No breeder can control that.

[mita]

[

I don't think you have to look as far as another species when talking about what we should expect in terms of genetics. Take the humble Kelpie for example. The breed has very few inherited issues and of the ones they do have, incidences are rare. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm hoping for hope.

Your original question was if it's possible to find a Cav without health issues. Health problems are remarkably common across animal species....and not all are specifically genetic in origin. Many arise from the simple biology of being alive....and interacting with an environment (whether animal or human).

Experienced Cav breeders have already given you the state-of-the-art position on specifically genetically acquired health issues in that breed. Makes sense then, for you to track down registered breeders who are on top of their game.

I did that for both my breeds of interest and have generally OK health-wise purebreds as pets. They're not kelpies BTW.

Edited July 20, 2012 by mita

[LizT]

Well then I guess the answer to your original question is.

There are many good breeders out there who are trying to achieve just that....a healthy Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, sadly there are many more people out there breeding CKCS who don't give a toss and are in it only for the money.

You will certainly need to do your homework to throw the odds back in favour of a healthy dog, but it will still be natures roll of the dice.

[Blackdogs]

Some of the issues in Cavaliers may not be totally hereditary. I consider MVD the worst of the problems - and the mode of inheritance is not known. It is known that feeding raw food, is beneficial, and may avoid heart problems, because the raw strengthens the connective tissue in the heart. So a raw diet may avoid, or reduce any incidence of MVD. And despite research, the mode of inheritance is still not known. It is obviously a recessive gene and could be autosomal.

Current recommenation is to use dogs which do not develop early murmurs, and that means not mating at 18 months. If the dog has a murmur at 7 or 8, but is not on medication, nor affected that is seen as ok - not ideal for breeding, but ok for pets because the murmur is causing no problems.

SM, from anyone's point of view, is a complete nightmare. Having two parents which are Graded A does not guarantee a clear pup. Some dogs with SM are affected by air pressure, and some are affected by other things. Some have symptoms, and no clinical signs on MRI. Some have chiari malformations, and no sm. Some have sm, quite bad on MRI, but the dog has no symptoms.

Buy from someone with old ancestors hanging around. Soneone ethical and registered.

I recently sold a pup to people who previously bought from a pet shop. The pup developed renal problems, cost them $K4 and had to be pts at 17 months. When they came to see my pups they saw the mother, the father, the auntie, the grandfather, and the great-grandmother, who is 12. I can't guarantee that pup will be healthy for life, but there are no hereditary nasties lurking there.

All I can do is breed from healthy dogs; I can't guarantee good health for life, but that is what I aim for.

I do believe strongly that feeding, food and general care plays a very large part in the health or otherwise of dogs. No breeder can control that.

Thank-you, Jed. That was very informative. I hope you're still breeding when my mother decides to get a dog. :)

[Blackdogs]

[

I don't think you have to look as far as another species when talking about what we should expect in terms of genetics. Take the humble Kelpie for example. The breed has very few inherited issues and of the ones they do have, incidences are rare. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm hoping for hope.

Your original question was if it's possible to find a Cav without health issues. Health problems are remarkably common across animal species....and not all are specifically genetic in origin. Many arise from the simple biology of being alive....and interacting with an environment (whether animal or human).

Experienced Cav breeders have already given you the state-of-the-art position on specifically genetically acquired health issues in that breed. Makes sense then, for you to track down registered breeders who are on top of their game.

I did that for both my breeds of interest and have generally OK health-wise purebreds as pets. They're not kelpies BTW.

Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact).

[mita]

[

Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact).

To be fair to you, you opened the thread more on the point of the extent of health issues in the Cav breed....and asked for discussion about that. As Jed & others commented it's a popular breed which has indeed led to a great deal of mindless breeding practice. With some dire results in terms of health and conformation....which basically you were picking up on.

I hope the posts from the Cav breeders, who are on top of their game, has given you hope that quality effort still exists out there! :)

[Blackdogs]

[

Yeah, my original question could have been worded much better, but then, I'd had one too many ales at the time (hence the topsy-turvy-title and the lack of tact).

To be fair to you, you opened the thread more on the point of the extent of health issues in the Cav breed....and asked for discussion about that. As Jed & others commented it's a popular breed which has indeed led to a great deal of mindless breeding practice. With some dire results in terms of health and conformation....which basically you were picking up on.

I hope the posts from the Cav breeders, who are on top of their game, has given you hope that quality effort still exists out there! :)

Oh, I defintely feel heartened that there's breeders out there working tirelessly on the health of the breed.

Cheers. :)

[Bilbo Baggins]

I cannot quote because I am on my phone.

Jed your post is excellent, exactly what I was going to say.

Cavaliers actually do not not have, at the moment, any true genetic diseases.

Both parents have either be carriers or affected to pass on a disease.

Then there is the mode of inheritance. Affected to carrier 2 affected 2 carrier. Carrier to carrier 1 affected, 2 carrier, 1 clear.

Carrier to clear 1 carrier 3 clear.

Hope I got my genetics sorted :)

So following that line you breed a pup from clear parents and it gets a heart murmur.

As Jed stated what else is in play.

All I can say to puppy buyers that the pup comes from clear parents and this is the history of my dogs, your pups ancestors.

[Blackdogs]

I cannot quote because I am on my phone.

Jed your post is excellent, exactly what I was going to say.

Cavaliers actually do not not have, at the moment, any true genetic diseases.

Both parents have either be carriers or affected to pass on a disease.

Then there is the mode of inheritance. Affected to carrier 2 affected 2 carrier. Carrier to carrier 1 affected, 2 carrier, 1 clear.

Carrier to clear 1 carrier 3 clear.

Hope I got my genetics sorted :)

So following that line you breed a pup from clear parents and it gets a heart murmur.

As Jed stated what else is in play.

All I can say to puppy buyers that the pup comes from clear parents and this is the history of my dogs, your pups ancestors.

Thanks for your input, Bilbo. It all sounds pretty complicated.