Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Hello my sister is getting 2 BYB bred border collies * sigh* and wants to breed them.... one caramel or red I don't know technical name for this colour. and a black and white. Both have a blue eye which I know is a fault and the mother from what I see in the pics is a horrible representation of the breed and looks to be quite skinny and not looked after. and to top it off she thinks she is getting a bargain because they are not vacc or microchipped so she is getting them cheap????? and the worst part is she wants to breed them ( from two different litters) and she also thinks she can show them???? Please help me preach to the dumb and uneducated.( yes I know its my family but I feel like banging my head against a wall) there is soooo many in the pound system. why make more Edited August 12, 2012 by thundercat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Get her to take them to a show, show people will let her know in the nicest possible way bwahhhh!!! You can't help stupid I'm afraid... Sometimes it's easier to walk away shaking ones head :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Hello my sister is getting 2 BYB bred border collies * sigh* and wants to breed them.... one caramel or red I don't know technical name for this colour. and a black and white. Both have a blue eye which I know is a fault and the mother from what I see in the pics is a horrible representation of the breed and looks to be quite skinny and not looked after. and to top it off she thinks she is getting a bargain because they are not vacc or microchipped so she is getting them cheap????? and the worst part is she wants to breed them ( from two different litters) and she also thinks she can show them???? Please help me preach to the dumb and uneducated.( yes I know its my family but I feel like banging my head against a wall) there is soooo many in the pound system. why make more Print off the Sick Border Collie thread in the puppy forum and show that to her. Border collies need to be DNA tested for the fatal conditions CL and TNS and the eye problem CEA. As all these condtions are 100% preventable she could be sued for selling an affected puppy. The parents of litters should also be hip and elbow scored and have an eye test called a gonioscopy. All this will cost her about $500+ per dog that is if these dogs are not themselves affected byt TNS or CL and therefore don't live to breeding age. You cannot show a blue eyed Border Collie in Australia. Are these puppies even registered? If not they cannot be shown or have registered progeny. In most states now puppies need to vaccinated and microchipped by law before leaving, so mayb you could dob the breeder into the council and get them fined. Finally, what sort of fencing does your sister have? Many Borders can easily hop over 6-7' fence. What does she know about dogs and breeding? Does she realise a her first litter could be a midnight caesarian for one puppy that dies anyway? These things happen and she could be thousands out of pocket. Edited to add, yes the term is "red". Edited August 12, 2012 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe001 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I would just start with they will cost you money. Lets say - 4 puppies sell for $400 each - wow that is $1600 - not quite. Also not registered so will go for much less than registered, unable to be shown due to not being registered. If mum doiesn't give birth easily it will be at least $2000 in vet fees. Puppies will need to be microchipped, vacinated and wormed (costs $? - I'm guessing over $100 each). If one gets sick that decreases the profit even more. That is if they can be sold (they are common so may not even sell at all) - if not - what is she going to do with them. Surrender them to the pound??? Also does she really want an entire bitch - blood when in season and entire dogs tryig to get into her yard. Also the increased cost of council registration for entire dogs. Just a few suggestions. If she has these ideas she doesn't care about the moral aspect so I wouldn't bother about that - just hit her hip-pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Oh, and the bitch won't be mature enough for breeding until she is at least 18 months -2 years old so she will have to keep them apart during earlier seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Print off the Sick Border Collie thread in the puppy forum and show that to her. Border collies need to be DNA tested for the fatal conditions CL and TNS and the eye problem CEA. As all these condtions are 100% preventable she could be sued for selling an affected puppy. The parents of litters should also be hip and elbow scored and have an eye test called a gonioscopy. All this will cost her about $500+ per dog that is if these dogs are not themselves affected byt TNS or CL and therefore don't live to breeding age. yes!! also .. she is getting teh dogs 'cheap'. Fine . NOW she has to chip them, vacc them worm them .... are they baby puppies? if so .. we have some time to educate her ...... LINK LINK LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumof4girls Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Forgot about that thread :-( great idea !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Ask her who she's getting the dogs from then report them for not vaccinating and microchipping. Then, ask your sister how much she values your relationship and say if she gets any pet shop or BYB dog and decides to breed from them that you will cut her off completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I have asked her who she is getting them from and all she tells me is some guy in newcastle she has had an accidental foxie cross litter before..which actually did end up in C SECTION cost her $950 but this has not put her off..... i will post some pics of them and then you can see what I mean by definetly byb and not show worthy Edited August 12, 2012 by thundercat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) mum is the second one I dont have pics of the caramel ones parents unfortunetly Edited August 12, 2012 by thundercat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I agree with hitting her about money. Have a look on the TP and Gumtree and see what they are selling for, it might put her off if its not much and they end up with a c section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 I agree with hitting her about money. Have a look on the TP and Gumtree and see what they are selling for, it might put her off if its not much and they end up with a c section. I saw some on gumtree for about $500 each .. but that is the sydney area, I dont think newcastle really even has a market for dogs .. well not as much as sydney. there is only like 100 ads in the newcastle gumtree and about 1500 in sydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 There is a better than average chance that the red one could be deaf with a white face and ear as well as the blue eye. The black' one's dam also has excess white so another risk factor for deafness. I think present her with all the info and be prepared to break off all ties with her if she proves to so stupid as to go ahead. Pounds are full of badly bred Borders so why add more to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Thats what I am afraid of ........ I cannot believe though that she would rather go ahead with this stupid idea and risk losing a relationship with me only thing is I will lose contact with my nephew who I love so much........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Print out the sick puppy thread as well as everything you can find on the "Greyshaft" case. Anybody, whether a registered breeder or not, would benefit from reading some of this information. These days, selling puppies, even from health tested parents can be a minefield for the unwary let alone a BYBer selling untested puppies of a breed with known issues and already scary precedents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 There is a better than average chance that the red one could be deaf with a white face and ear as well as the blue eye. The black' one's dam also has excess white so another risk factor for deafness. Huh??? Why would you assume a dog is deaf because it has white on it? There is also nothing genetically wrong with having a blue eye. One of the pups from our last litter has a white face and 1 blue eye and he is perfectly healthy. Plenty of dogs in the working lines that are almost all white yet they can hear perfectly fine. What a strange assumption for you to make. As for the dam having excess white, she looks like she could be s^p (genetic speak for piebald) which is also a very common colour pattern in border collies. It is frowned upon in the show ring but is a perfectly normal and healthy colour pattern, in fact you get a fair bit of s^w (extreme piebald) dogs too. The granddam of our litter is extreme piebald, once again perfectly healthy. IMO mum (and B/W pup) look to have a fair bit of working lines in them (if they are in fact pure border in the first place I guess). Definitely not show worthy. Something to note is that if she is from working lines unfortunately not many of them do any sort of genetic testing and something like CEA could go completely undetected in the dogs. Not to mention TNS and CL which are fatal (once again I think of that recent thread about Bailey). I really truly hope that you are able to talk your sister out of this purchase. There are so many things that could go wrong with these pups and the last thing the world needs is for them to also be bred down the track. The only other thing I can think of to say is that my Delta came from a very similar situation (although had been bred to work, not just for the hell of it)and her conformation has led to health problems and she has spondylosis throughout her spine as a result of breeding for ability rather than structure. There are so many people who are breeding responsibly, and I am sure would be more than happy to mentor her through the breeding process if it is something she wants to get into in the future. There is no reason to take a risk such as this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have tried to explain all of this about testing etc I managed to talk her out of going to get some labs and breeding them by telling her about all the testing, plus she was put off by the cost of buying the parents to start off with. But she already has the male border and getting the female in a couple of days when she gets the money.....sadly I dont think I can talk her out of it which is really heartbreaking..... so many people put in such effort to breed some beautfiful healthy borders and then people like my sister unfortunetly put no thought apart from male and female of same breed mate and wallah puppies are born and then sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have tried to explain all of this about testing etc I managed to talk her out of going to get some labs and breeding them by telling her about all the testing, plus she was put off by the cost of buying the parents to start off with. But she already has the male border and getting the female in a couple of days when she gets the money.....sadly I dont think I can talk her out of it which is really heartbreaking..... so many people put in such effort to breed some beautfiful healthy borders and then people like my sister unfortunetly put no thought apart from male and female of same breed mate and wallah puppies are born and then sold How sad Is there any chance of at least talking her out of having 2 pups at the same time? It is a lot of work to raise 2 puppies at the same time... especially active puppies! I am the sort of person that would secretly get the female desexed if the opportunity arises. Or tell her that the boy's little bits don't appear to have dropped properly and are at risk of severe complications (would require a vet to be on side with you though to support the story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I have tried to explain all of this about testing etc I managed to talk her out of going to get some labs and breeding them by telling her about all the testing, plus she was put off by the cost of buying the parents to start off with. But she already has the male border and getting the female in a couple of days when she gets the money.....sadly I dont think I can talk her out of it which is really heartbreaking..... so many people put in such effort to breed some beautfiful healthy borders and then people like my sister unfortunetly put no thought apart from male and female of same breed mate and wallah puppies are born and then sold How much does this matter to you? Are you willing to break off your relationship with her over this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squidgy Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 I am not sure sheridan I don't know if i can just sit back and watch her breed the death out of these dogs and just go on like nothing has changed..... so yes I am probly going to have to say yes.... I don't see her waiting until the bitch is 18months + either the accidental foxie litter was the girls first season...she could have aborted it but no kept the litter and needed a c section... no talking sense into her.... and she abuses me everytime I try so..... she can do it all by herself I dont want a part in it.. I hate caring sometime because it hurts so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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