Wobbly Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I messed up. I'm not sure how badly, quite badly I think. I'm not sure how to fix this, or even if it is fixable. I decided I needed a really reliable recall, and the best way to do it was with a tug toy/frisbee. So I really worked on making my dog frisbee obsessed, I was more successful with this than I had bargained for. :laugh: So the good thing is, the frisbee is the best thing in the whole world, more interesting than any cat/possum/other dog etc could ever be. It's great for recall. Any frisbee will do the job, no matter the colour or material (I do prefer fabric or rubber though). I like this bit about what I've done. If I need an emergency recall and I'm competing with something super interesting I just call "Frisbee" and she comes running to me so I can put the leash on, then give her the frisbee for a reward. If she's holding the frisbee she has no interest in other dogs or cats or anything else, and trots happily by my side, frisbee proudly in her mouth. So that is great and I want to preserve that. But the bad part is, I'm not a dog behaviourist, in fact I'm pretty clueless really (I get by on dumb luck mostly I think), so I didn't go about it the right way..... I was so concerned with building up drive, and making her love tug o war and frisbee fetch, that I left out that very, very important bit about giving me the frisbee back. When I first started to teach her to tug, she was hesitant so I figured I'd build the drive first and work on the finer points like "out", later. Which I now know was a huge mistake - 20/20 hindsight. "Out" should have been amongst the first and foremost things I taught, I realise now. Alas the damage is done, I have absolutely nothing in the way of "out". So it's not too terrible, I can get the frisbee off her using a combination of stealth and subterfuge. I mostly use 2 frisbees for a bait & switch or if she's not too excited I can distract her with treats & get the frisbee off her while she's busy taking the treat. She's wise to this last trick though, it used to work great, but as time progresses it's becoming less and less effective, the frisbee is worth way more than the food to her, and the gap seems to be widening. it's not an awful situation, my bait & switch technique with 2 frisbees is pretty good, but it would be MUCH, MUCH nicer if I could just command her to give it to me & she did. You know, like every other normal dog does as a matter of course. :laugh: I think I have to get her to see that giving me the frisbee is good because it means I will throw the frisbee/play tug with her as a reward for giving it too me. Would that be the correct way to see it? I'm not sure how to go about about teaching her that. She likes balls too, but because she has free access to balls at home they aren't so high value, she will happily chase them and retrieve them though, and we have a lot of fun playing fetch with them in the lounge room most evenings. I have to take the ball off her though, she won't give it to me ofc. But maybe I could use a ball as a start? She will drop the ball if I don't continue playing, so that is probably an angle I can use. She is food driven, food is more interesting than balls, another potential angle to use? But I'm not really sure how to begin, or whether if it worked it would transfer to frisbees anyway. I know, I messed up. My dog doesn't do "out", Mea Culpa. Can I rehabilitate the mess I've made here? Any suggestions or advice would be very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyBlue Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Does she play with the frisbee on her own? That is - if you disengage from the game will she lose interest in the toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (I get by on dumb luck mostly I think) Oh thank god you said that, it's not just me! :laugh: I think you're on the right track, get the cue solid on lower value items like the balls, then use marker training and your other frisbee to reward the out once you think you're ready :) I don't think it's a lost cause at all! Giving back the frisbee is just part of the awesome game, no need for it to reduce the value :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Does she play with the frisbee on her own? That is - if you disengage from the game will she lose interest in the toy. Eventually she will, but it can take a long time (like 30 minutes or more). What she REALLY wants is for me to play tug with the frisbee. She loves that most, but I can't get the frisbee off her - she's too strong, so it just becomes a battle of wills, she won't let go, I won't let go, I get bored more quickly with than she does, so she "wins" by default. For this reason I don't play tug with the frisbee with her anymore, I don't want her to "win" such a precious resource so much. Initially I did though - when I was working to build the frisbee love I would let her "win" all the time. Now we only play tug with stuff I can get off her more easily, balls are actually very good for this I find. The bigness of them means she can't get as firm clamp on them as with a frisbee. So I usually "win" quickly, she knows I'm "letting" her hold on, rather than it being an equal contest, if that makes sense. We also use one of those rope tug toys that we play fetch with as well (like the balls she has free access to these in the house, so they are not super high value like the frisbee is.) Rereading that, it sounds like the problem is perhaps that it's too much like our tug is a competitive contest? But since I don't have "out" I guess "winning" is the only possible outcome. Could that be contributing to the problem? It should be more a collaborative game I think? So she will bring the frisbee to me hoping to goad me into a game of tug. If I won't play tug she will sit in from of me & chew it (I get them in packs of 10, they don't last that long). If I walk off she will walk with me carrying the frisbee, eventually she'll drop it to go and smell something long enough for me to get it from her (she hasn't forgotten about it though, she just forgets I'm hovering, waiting to snatch it up when she drops it, she'll come back to get it once she's done with her sniffing so I have to be quick.) :laugh: If she's on the leash and can't go off sniffing, she never gets bored of carrying it, she seems very proud of carrying it around. Normally what happens is this: -We are walking in our off leash spot and someone brings in another dog, or on their dirt bikes or something (she likes to chase motorbikes in our walk spot, interestingly she has no interest in them in other contexts, it's specifically only there she wants to chase them). -I pull out the frisbee, throw it into the middle of the dam, she swims out to grab it. -She brings it back to me delighted with herself -She realises I'm not playing tug, so she lies down and proceeds to chew -If she's calm I will get out a treat and hold it far enough away that it gives me a chance to get the frisbee quickly while she's busy going for the treat. This is becoming less and less effective. -alternatively i will bring out the other frisbee and tease her with that and when she goes to get that, I grab HER frisbee & I keep the other one. :laugh: -I have a few other tricks I use to get it off her too: If I can cover the whole frisbee with my hands (and even feet) while she's repositioning her bite on it then I can get it too. -Also with the fabric frisbee I can progressively squish it in my hands making the bite surface ever smaller till eventually she has no spot on it to bite. -Also she doesn't like sand in her mouth, so getting the frisbee off is easy if I make the frisbee sandy and keep her excitement level low enough that she notices the sand in her mouth. NO tug, because that's the most exciting thing, and she won't notice sand, or food or anything else except the game. Letting her walk around with the frisbee for a bit usually works, she goes "eww sandy", and spits it out and is reluctant to rebite. Part of the reason for swimming tug, apart from the fact she loves swimming, and it tires her out, is rinsing the sand off it. It's why we're all about swim fetch really. I hope I'm making sense! I'm trying to describe all the stuff that's maybe important properly. (I get by on dumb luck mostly I think) Oh thank god you said that, it's not just me! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I thought I best be honest. XD I see little kids playing fetch with their dogs and I wonder why is that your average 11 year old can teach their dog the rules of fetch so easily and I can't? The other stuff I got right MUST be sheer fluke. :laugh: I think you're on the right track, get the cue solid on lower value items like the balls, then use marker training and your other frisbee to reward the out once you think you're ready :) I don't think it's a lost cause at all! Giving back the frisbee is just part of the awesome game, no need for it to reduce the value :D I sort of know that in theory, but I'm unsure exactly how to go about it in practice. I think it's lack of a solid plan that has stopped me, I really need to develop one. OK how does this sound to start - Normally when we play fetch with the ball, once I lose interest in playing, and she realises I won't play anymore, she will drop the ball. OK so next time that happens, I say "Good!" ("Good" is our TOT marker - I haven't been consistent enough with marking to be honest, but she does understand that "Good" said in that tone of voice I use for TOT means "treats incoming".) so she will learn to see dropping the ball as a way to make me give her treats. Then I can start the game up again and repeat the process? Does that sound like a good start? I add the "Out" command once we've developed a rhythm with this just as she is dropping the ball so she gets the association right? Will that work do you think? I can't believe I've left it this long to train this. Better late than never I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Here's a picture of her playing tug with my husband, and one of her cow print fabric frisbees. She really puts her all into it. Her favourite trick, when she thinks she's got a really good game of tug going, but she's getting too tired to shake and pull is to take her weight off her feet so you have to take her entire body weight. :laugh: She really is quite impressive, you could lift her entirely off the ground and she wouldn't let go, but I'd be too concerned about her teeth to ever do that. We have a lot of fun with the frisbee, but it would of course be lot more fun if I could teach her the "Out". XD She's passionate, really, really, really passionate about her frisbees (and tug o war in general, but the frisbee is the ultimate toy of all toys). So I have to make this passion work for me rather than against me in teaching the out. I wish I were really good at dog psychology, it would help a lot. But I'm not, so I'm hoping you guys have some good advice for me. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I don't think you've made a mess of it :) One thing I would start with is not to let her keep and chew on the frisbee, when you are done playing with it, you keep it. Will she tug on things other than a frisbee - like a different type of tug? It might be easier to start training the out on a firmer tug where you can limit the self satisfying. One way of teaching it is to hold the tug so you can keep the tug completely still 'dead' and wait them out until they let go. Then as soon as they let go reanimate the tug and give a cue to take the tug. This will take some time at first, especially given what you have written :laugh: but is definitely easier if you start with a more conventional tug that does not stretch or squish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) I'd start by training "out" with something she isn't absolutely crazy about. Try a tug, start with "yes", play a little game (not getting her too hyped up, 10 sec max, calm voice etc) and then hold the tug tightly against your legs horizontally. The tug is now "dead" and she can't have fun with it. Don't say anything at all and wait for her to get bored and let go (this could take a looooooong time, but persevere). As soon as she lets out say "out, good out" and give her the command to start playing (ie use "yes"). Rinse and repeat a few times. After a lot of repetitions leave a second or two between "out" and "yes" so that she learns that she has to wait for your permission to start tugging again. If she starts jumping turn your back calmly (stand against a wall so she can't get tot he tug) and as soon as she stops jumping "yes" and play again. She should cotton on that: i) The game is started by you with a "yes" ii) The game ends with "out". The sooner she lets go, the sooner she gets to play again. This should then translate to other toys like the frisbee. ETA: You can get "bar" tugs that are firm so it is easier to play "dead tug". Edited October 22, 2012 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 what is her favourite favourite food? I train "gimmee" (out , here, means go out of a room /house/yard) with yummy food treats if on a favourite toy..I swap ... Command given, treat waved in front of nose,Dog releases toy ..a treat gets shoved in, and much praise is given,.repeat, repeat ... I also do a similar thing with YUK! for objects which dog is not allowed to have back ..stolen items, dangerous items etc . A shout of YUK ..means instant spit ..and backpedal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I trained that pers for when they stole my asthma pump, as it is something I really need in an emergency. Now the little b*ggers steal it at any opportunity and then run to the kitchen, ready for "exchange for num num". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I trained that pers for when they stole my asthma pump, as it is something I really need in an emergency. Now the little b*ggers steal it at any opportunity and then run to the kitchen, ready for "exchange for num num". LOL!! at least Hamlet picks up rubbish from the floor for me!..tissues, dropped pens etc (but he also raids the little bins if the floor is clear) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I trained that pers for when they stole my asthma pump, as it is something I really need in an emergency. Now the little b*ggers steal it at any opportunity and then run to the kitchen, ready for "exchange for num num". I sucessfully trained my pup to steal undies, bras and socks this way! Whenever she stole something, I'd swap for a treat to get it back, so she started stealing them and standing in front of the treat cupboard waiting for her treat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I sucessfully trained my pup to steal undies, bras and socks this way! brilliant!! :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Maybe came to me ball obsessed and i had a similar issue, I used two balls (the whole eyes are bigger than your belly thing) she'd go to grab the other ball and drop the ball she had and I'd grab both and say "drop it" it took a while but she's pretty good now, as soon as I touch the toy in her mouth she'll release hold. Although she can be very sneaky and stay just out of reach some days (brat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I don't think you've made a mess of it :) One thing I would start with is not to let her keep and chew on the frisbee, when you are done playing with it, you keep it. Will she tug on things other than a frisbee - like a different type of tug? It might be easier to start training the out on a firmer tug where you can limit the self satisfying. One way of teaching it is to hold the tug so you can keep the tug completely still 'dead' and wait them out until they let go. Then as soon as they let go reanimate the tug and give a cue to take the tug. This will take some time at first, especially given what you have written :laugh: but is definitely easier if you start with a more conventional tug that does not stretch or squish. So good to read you say you don't think I've made a mess of it. I was reading your tug thread - we have the opposite problem to eachother - our dogs really need to swap notes on this isuue. :laugh: What sort of toy would you suggest? I was looking at those udders that were linked in your thread - they look like they might be the job. I'd start by training "out" with something she isn't absolutely crazy about. Try a tug, start with "yes", play a little game (not getting her too hyped up, 10 sec max, calm voice etc) and then hold the tug tightly against your legs horizontally. The tug is now "dead" and she can't have fun with it. Don't say anything at all and wait for her to get bored and let go (this could take a looooooong time, but persevere). As soon as she lets out say "out, good out" and give her the command to start playing (ie use "yes"). Rinse and repeat a few times. After a lot of repetitions leave a second or two between "out" and "yes" so that she learns that she has to wait for your permission to start tugging again. If she starts jumping turn your back calmly (stand against a wall so she can't get tot he tug) and as soon as she stops jumping "yes" and play again. She should cotton on that: i) The game is started by you with a "yes" ii) The game ends with "out". The sooner she lets go, the sooner she gets to play again. This should then translate to other toys like the frisbee. ETA: You can get "bar" tugs that are firm so it is easier to play "dead tug". Perfect! Thank you so much for taking the time to write this Megan, it's exactly the sort of direction I need. I am going to read it a few times today to make sure the process is firmly cemented in my head. Between your explanation and Kavik's suggestions I think I can do this! :D OK I need to pick a new word that means playtime starts now. I like Persephone's idea of giving her a treat too - she knows all about treat training, and loves it. Would a treat after "out, good out" be appropriate too? "Good" means "treat incoming" in our world. My training is bribe based, maybe not the best way, but it's always worked for me. XD Would the Udder tug be good? I will start immediately I have a complete accurate visualisation in my mind of the process and I have an appropriate toy that she has the right attitude to. I can manipulate her desire for a toy by making it available to her at all times for low drive or for high drive I make it like the frisbee - limited availability, and complete engagement in really fun way when I do produce it (only once per day, high excitement context like on our walks). I think her breed makes her really, really easy to manipulate in this respect. So to make a low drive toy we will play with it in the house only & it can live in her toybox so she has access whenever she wants. A new slobbery thing for her to put in my lap while I'm doing other stuff. O goody. XD what is her favourite favourite food? I train "gimmee" (out , here, means go out of a room /house/yard) with yummy food treats if on a favourite toy..I swap ... Command given, treat waved in front of nose,Dog releases toy ..a treat gets shoved in, and much praise is given,.repeat, repeat ... I also do a similar thing with YUK! for objects which dog is not allowed to have back ..stolen items, dangerous items etc . A shout of YUK ..means instant spit ..and backpedal... Her favourite food is.... Everything! Well raw egg is one she goes for first above all else given a choice, not really easy to use as treat though. I will use some kind of chopped meat I think, chicken pieces are a definite favourite. XD Yes, I have to pick a word. Aus I think will be a good one, it means out in German. I don't really use "Out" much for Jarrah because she's an indoor dog, my backyard is a strictly under supervision area for her, so as far as she's concerned going outside is a treat. But I do like the idea of Aus - German for dogs and french for horses, as they say. For making her drop something, I usually just employ an inchoate roar of mock rage "rarrrrgghhh!" is probably the best phonetic description I can give you. This comes from her habit of picking up dead stuff she finds, and they're so revolting, I really have no words - just "rrrraaarrrrgh!!!". She drops it and gives me an injured look, like how could I possibly be mad at her for finding such a wonderfully dead smelly possum or whatever it is she's intent on bringing to me (probably thinking we'll be have a wonderful game of tug with this excellent new aromatic item she's found). You know, reading your post it occurs to me I could have picked a lot better word than "Raaarrrrgh!" for this purpose. XD I trained that pers for when they stole my asthma pump, as it is something I really need in an emergency. Now the little b*ggers steal it at any opportunity and then run to the kitchen, ready for "exchange for num num". That's hilarious. XD Jarrah used to be a thief, but she's stopped now. She only takes household goods I give to her personally or stuff I put in her toybox, she knows her toybox is the "go to" place for interesting stuff to chew, I randomly put new things in there when she's not looking so she checks it regularly. I don't know how I trained her out of thieving remote controls and all the stuff she used to love eating, but somehow she's very good about that now, she's a chewer, but only on stuff that is given to her or put in her toybox. One of my lucky flukes I guess. XD OK I'm going to reread all the advice a few times, and take her for a walk to think about it and digest it all. Then reread when I come home to consolidate it in my mind again. Thank you so much! I really appreciate the advice! :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) I trained that pers for when they stole my asthma pump, as it is something I really need in an emergency. Now the little b*ggers steal it at any opportunity and then run to the kitchen, ready for "exchange for num num". I sucessfully trained my pup to steal undies, bras and socks this way! Whenever she stole something, I'd swap for a treat to get it back, so she started stealing them and standing in front of the treat cupboard waiting for her treat :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Maybe came to me ball obsessed and i had a similar issue, I used two balls (the whole eyes are bigger than your belly thing) she'd go to grab the other ball and drop the ball she had and I'd grab both and say "drop it" it took a while but she's pretty good now, as soon as I touch the toy in her mouth she'll release hold. Although she can be very sneaky and stay just out of reach some days (brat) Ahh yes, I knew there would be a way to use this too! In fact I already use it to get the frisbee off her right now, but I've been a bit unsuccessful in using it as an actual training method, I just wasn't sure exactly how to go about it. Edited October 22, 2012 by Wobbly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I just simply offered her the other ball and I waited until i dropped him and then said "drop it" and removed both the balls and gave her some chicken. it's effective enough for me and I get the toys off her now but she's very easy to train and very focused on pleasing, I'm not sure about your dog and it's trainability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Yes our dogs have the opposite problem - I would kill to have your problem :laugh: I wouldn't use the udder tug for this issue - it is quite soft and squishy and exciting (one of my dog's favourites!) and quite difficult to make completely dead - they can still self satisfy by chewing it. I would use one of the more 'traditional' shaped tugs such as those K9Pro sells - they would be ideal for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 an udder tug ...sounds a bit gross...... My old Kieran would ALWAYS give me something if I told him .. "I'll put it here for later" ... and I would place it somewhere in sight, but unreachable ..that way he knew where it was ..and so still 'had it' ..sort of .... I don't think that's being anthropomorphic ...it worked, anyway :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 an udder tug ...sounds a bit gross...... My old Kieran would ALWAYS give me something if I told him .. "I'll put it here for later" ... and I would place it somewhere in sight, but unreachable ..that way he knew where it was ..and so still 'had it' ..sort of .... I don't think that's being anthropomorphic ...it worked, anyway :p LOL persephone - this is an udder tug http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3018&ParentCat=29 This is the type of tug that would be ideal for training the out if he tugs hard and OK on other surfaces - they are a harder tug http://www.k9pro.com.au/categories.php?category=Tugs/Synthetic-Tugs otherwise the french linen one is softer or from clean run http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3114&ParentCat=29 or http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3340&ParentCat=29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 an udder tug ...sounds a bit gross...... My old Kieran would ALWAYS give me something if I told him .. "I'll put it here for later" ... and I would place it somewhere in sight, but unreachable ..that way he knew where it was ..and so still 'had it' ..sort of .... I don't think that's being anthropomorphic ...it worked, anyway :p LOL persephone - this is an udder tug http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3018&ParentCat=29 This is the type of tug that would be ideal for training the out if he tugs hard and OK on other surfaces - they are a harder tug http://www.k9pro.com.au/categories.php?category=Tugs/Synthetic-Tugs otherwise the french linen one is softer or from clean run http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3114&ParentCat=29 or http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3340&ParentCat=29 I was almost afraid to click that link, I really had images of cows boobs in my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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