Vegan Pets?

[raz]

I'm pretty sure that if a dog was offered a scotch filet or a cake of tofu he's not going to ask for sprouts to go with the latter.

I dont agree with feeding dogs and cats a vegan diet at all unless they have severe allergies as mentioned above. The problem with that mob advertising a company that offers vegan food for pets is it will attract hipsters who think it's cool to have a vegan dog or cat.

[espinay2]

Dogs are omnivores like humans, so they can eat meat, veggies & fruit. I would never feed my dogs just fruit, veg & grains, but I wouldn't feed them just meat either. That's why I like the BARF diet, a balanced mixture of everything.

Not like humans. Their gastrointestinal tract, from teeth to anus, is VERY different from a humans.

Their teeth can not grind food the way a humans can so they can not process them that way - their teeth are designed for ripping, tearing and crunching in a vicelike fashion.

There is no side to side jaw movement, only up and down.

Human saliva contains amylase which helps break down starchy foods.

A dogs saliva does not. It contains lysozyme which aids in killing bacteria.

Unlike humans, dogs can not digest cellulose so this has to be broken down artificially for them first.

Their stomach acids are much stronger than humans - designed for processing large chunks of meat.

The pH of a dogs gastrointestinal tract is higher (more acidic).

Again to aid in dealing with bacteria and to break down large chunks of meat and bone etc.

The dogs stomach has comparatively a much larger volume than a humans when compared to the rest of the gastrointestinal system.

Most of a dogs digestion takes place in the stomach, as opposed to a humans which takes place in the intestines (a dogs stomach is a 'processing depot' wheras a humans is just a 'transit lounge')

Dogs intestines are much shorter than humans (comparatively only about 5% of the length of human intestines).

Humans longer intestines are better suited to the processing of grains and vegetable matter wheras the dogs intestines are designed to quickly pass the meat slurry created by the stomach through the system.

This fast rate helps reduce issues with any remaining bacteria which dogs - as carrion eaters as well - are more likely than humans to encounter.

The internal surface of a dogs intestines is also much smoother than a humans, to aid in the quick transit of food.

Humans need to have longer intestines and a slower rate of digestion to adequately remove nutrients from grains and vegetable matter.

The shorter intestines and faster transit time for dogs means much less is absorbed through them and as mentioned, they can not digest cellulose so it (and anything it surrounds) will not be digested.

Edited October 29, 2012 by espinay2

[chuckandsteve]

I'm pretty sure that if a dog was offered a scotch filet or a cake of tofu he's not going to ask for sprouts to go with the latter.

I dont agree with feeding dogs and cats a vegan diet at all unless they have severe allergies as mentioned above. The problem with that mob advertising a company that offers vegan food for pets is it will attract hipsters who think it's cool to have a vegan dog or cat.

If i could pick between vegies or gelati for dinner as a child it would be the gelati, doesnt mean anything just that a dog cant make an informed decision, no suprises there.

If someone knows what they are doing there is no issues having a vegan dog, and no one so far has come up with a legimate reason not to, other than they personally dont like it but we live is Australia so unless the dog is suffering thts not valid.

[Ruin Maniac]

Just to make things clear, I'm not prejudiced against vegans. 4 of my good friends are vegans, and I've been a vegetarian in my teens. I'd like to ask that everyone try to be rational and civil when they express their opinions, as I definitely don't want to be responsible for starting fights or upsetting anyone.

I started this thread because I'm curious about the ethics and effects of vegan diets for pets because the sources I'm discovering are vested in one camp or the other (one I found listed the many qualifications of a vet who disapproved of vegan pets, only to mention briefly that he was hired by Purina, others support the vegan diet but are affiliated with some rather aggressive anti-meat and animal rights groups). It would be great if someone who feeds/has fed their dog a meat-free diet could chime in and share a little bit about their dog's health.

[Dame Aussie]

I think you will find that pretty much every product available is being pushed by someone/something who has a vested interest.

[JulesP]

if someone who feeds/has fed their dog a meat-free diet could chime in and share a little bit about their dog's health.

I did.

[raz]

If i could pick between vegies or gelati for dinner as a child it would be the gelati, doesnt mean anything just that a dog cant make an informed decision, no suprises there.

If someone knows what they are doing there is no issues having a vegan dog, and no one so far has come up with a legimate reason not to, other than they personally dont like it but we live is Australia so unless the dog is suffering thts not valid.

Well that's great that you would rather have gelati than basic nutrition but not really relevant to this discussion. A dog would not choose gelati over what's hard wired into their brain to eat if they are hungry. It's not rocket science and has nothing to do with what people personally dont like. Dogs are omnivores. Their gut is designed for that. Eat what you like but dont impose it on your dog or cat, which you have said you dont so good for you. Anyone who does is a boring hipster if they're just doing it for fad rather than health reasons, and I would call them an animal abuser.

It doesnt need a science project to understand why dogs and cats are not vegans! Just seems like more shit from animal 'rights' activists who, by their own philosphy, shouldnt even own pets. While they're bleating about how animals in captivity are abused by humans not only do they own pets but use pharmaceuticals tested on animals. Hypocritical much?

[Ruin Maniac]

Sorry, JulesP, I missed your post somehow.

So your dog finds it easy to process vegetables? How do you keep the diet balanced (nutritional supplements or through variety), and have you bought commercial vegan pet food? If she previously ate meat, has she been more or less the same since introducing the diet? I'd be interested to know, if you're willing to elaborate. :)

EDIT: and when you say "vego", do you mean vegetarian or vegan?

Edited October 30, 2012 by Ruin Maniac

[sas]

My dog who has now passed who was severely allergic had to go on a vegan diet at one stage as we'd run out of novel meat proteins to try. My research brought me to the fact that a protein is a protein regardless of if it comes from an animal or a plant and as long as it was a commercial balanced diet there was no issue with it.

Personaly I'd only feed a vegan diet if there was an issue with the dog meaning it could eat meat. But if it does no harm then who are we to judge?

[minimax]

My dog who has now passed who was severely allergic had to go on a vegan diet at one stage as we'd run out of novel meat proteins to try. My research brought me to the fact that a protein is a protein regardless of if it comes from an animal or a plant and as long as it was a commercial balanced diet there was no issue with it.

Personaly I'd only feed a vegan diet if there was an issue with the dog meaning it could eat meat. But if it does no harm then who are we to judge?

I think that's a good point, but I also think not enough un-biased research has been done to see if does or does not do any harm.

[Dame Aussie]

My dog who has now passed who was severely allergic had to go on a vegan diet at one stage as we'd run out of novel meat proteins to try. My research brought me to the fact that a protein is a protein regardless of if it comes from an animal or a plant and as long as it was a commercial balanced diet there was no issue with it.

Personaly I'd only feed a vegan diet if there was an issue with the dog meaning it could eat meat. But if it does no harm then who are we to judge?

Yes! About the protein, we can get all we need from other sources and it's not inferior.

[megan_]

Sorry, JulesP, I missed your post somehow.

So your dog finds it easy to process vegetables? How do you keep the diet balanced (nutritional supplements or through variety), and have you bought commercial vegan pet food? If she previously ate meat, has she been more or less the same since introducing the diet? I'd be interested to know, if you're willing to elaborate. :)

EDIT: and when you say "vego", do you mean vegetarian or vegan?

JulesP's dog has liver shunts. If she ate a "normal" dog diet my understanding is that she'd have seizures and could die as a result.

[chuckandsteve]

My dog who has now passed who was severely allergic had to go on a vegan diet at one stage as we'd run out of novel meat proteins to try. My research brought me to the fact that a protein is a protein regardless of if it comes from an animal or a plant and as long as it was a commercial balanced diet there was no issue with it.

Personaly I'd only feed a vegan diet if there was an issue with the dog meaning it could eat meat. But if it does no harm then who are we to judge?

Yes! About the protein, we can get all we need from other sources and it's not inferior.

Completely agree with sas. But i would feed vegan through personal choice if i thought the research was there to back it. A few years ago that may not have been true but conversation with meat eaters and their arguments have convinced me, the lack of valid statements or any real facts behind their beliefs and statements such as crazy "hipster" have convinced me im right

[sas]

My dog who has now passed who was severely allergic had to go on a vegan diet at one stage as we'd run out of novel meat proteins to try. My research brought me to the fact that a protein is a protein regardless of if it comes from an animal or a plant and as long as it was a commercial balanced diet there was no issue with it.

Personaly I'd only feed a vegan diet if there was an issue with the dog meaning it could eat meat. But if it does no harm then who are we to judge?

I think that's a good point, but I also think not enough un-biased research has been done to see if does or does not do any harm.

It actually has. Royal Canin had their own line and did plenty of research into it hense why I used their product. It wasn't popular enough and is no longer available.

[RubyBlue]

Dogs are omnivores like humans, so they can eat meat, veggies & fruit. I would never feed my dogs just fruit, veg & grains, but I wouldn't feed them just meat either. That's why I like the BARF diet, a balanced mixture of everything.

Not like humans. Their gastrointestinal tract, from teeth to anus, is VERY different from a humans.

Their teeth can not grind food the way a humans can so they can not process them that way - their teeth are designed for ripping, tearing and crunching in a vicelike fashion.

There is no side to side jaw movement, only up and down.

Human saliva contains amylase which helps break down starchy foods.

A dogs saliva does not. It contains lysozyme which aids in killing bacteria.

Unlike humans, dogs can not digest cellulose so this has to be broken down artificially for them first.

Their stomach acids are much stronger than humans - designed for processing large chunks of meat.

The pH of a dogs gastrointestinal tract is higher (more acidic).

Again to aid in dealing with bacteria and to break down large chunks of meat and bone etc.

The dogs stomach has comparatively a much larger volume than a humans when compared to the rest of the gastrointestinal system.

Most of a dogs digestion takes place in the stomach, as opposed to a humans which takes place in the intestines (a dogs stomach is a 'processing depot' wheras a humans is just a 'transit lounge')

Dogs intestines are much shorter than humans (comparatively only about 5% of the length of human intestines).

Humans longer intestines are better suited to the processing of grains and vegetable matter wheras the dogs intestines are designed to quickly pass the meat slurry created by the stomach through the system.

This fast rate helps reduce issues with any remaining bacteria which dogs - as carrion eaters as well - are more likely than humans to encounter.

The internal surface of a dogs intestines is also much smoother than a humans, to aid in the quick transit of food.

Humans need to have longer intestines and a slower rate of digestion to adequately remove nutrients from grains and vegetable matter.

The shorter intestines and faster transit time for dogs means much less is absorbed through them and as mentioned, they can not digest cellulose so it (and anything it surrounds) will not be digested.

Thank you. You explained it very well. This misconception that dogs are omnivores really irks me.

[Ruin Maniac]

Sorry, JulesP, I missed your post somehow.

So your dog finds it easy to process vegetables? How do you keep the diet balanced (nutritional supplements or through variety), and have you bought commercial vegan pet food? If she previously ate meat, has she been more or less the same since introducing the diet? I'd be interested to know, if you're willing to elaborate. :)

EDIT: and when you say "vego", do you mean vegetarian or vegan?

JulesP's dog has liver shunts. If she ate a "normal" dog diet my understanding is that she'd have seizures and could die as a result.

I'm sorry to hear that. Is that something dogs are born with? I asked the questions because I thought the problem may have occurred after having eaten a normal diet without issues for some period of time. Obviously, if there's a medical reason for the diet, then the vegan or vegetarian diet is going to result in a far more positive and healthy animal. But if that medical problem occurred after having eaten a "normal" diet without issue - there lies the comparison I'm interested in. I shouldn't assume, though.

[raz]

Completely agree with sas. But i would feed vegan through personal choice if i thought the research was there to back it. A few years ago that may not have been true but conversation with meat eaters and their arguments have convinced me, the lack of valid statements or any real facts behind their beliefs and statements such as crazy "hipster" have convinced me im right

What are you right about? There is no research to back it up for pretty obvious reasons, the same as feeding a marshmallow to a crocodile is not going to be nutritious. And I'm the one who mentioned hipsters so is that directed at me? If so, that's fine so tally ho.

Very sorry about your dog, sas.

[BlackJaq]

Can I ask what the reasons are for wanting to feed a dog a fully vegan diet?

Obviously if it is about not wanting to kill another animal for food then there is not much that can be done but if there are "only" concerns as to how ethically the animal was raised, maybe raising your own rabbits or guinea pigs or even chickens for meat might be an option?

The reason I ask is that I don't believe anybody would want to feed their dog a vegan diet simply because they believe it is healthier for the dog unless the dog has a medical condition?

Or is that the reasoning? If so, I wonder why?

I am not trying to offend anyone, just seriously wondering since it has never occurred to me to not feed my dog any animal products, seeing as dogs have been consuming animal "products" (probably mostly meat) for as long as they existed as a species? It seems a little like attempting to feed pigs a purely meat diet? Sure, they are all "omnivores" (not everybody agrees that dogs are, indeed omnivores actually), but that does not necessarily make a diet of only veg or only meat healthy?

Edited because I can't spell

Edited October 30, 2012 by BlackJaq

[minimax]

Can I ask what the reasons are for wanting to feed a dog a fully vegan diet?

Obviously if it is about not wanting to kill another animal for food then there is not much that can be done but if there are "only" concerns as to how ethically the animal was raised, maybe raising your own rabbits or guinea pigs or even chickens for meat might be an option?

The reason I ask is that I don't believe anybody would want to feed their dog a vegan diet simply because they believe it is healthier for the dog unless the dog has a medical condition?

Or is that the reasoning? If so, I wonder why?

I am not trying to offend anyone, just seriously wondering since it has never occurred to me to not feed my dog any animal products, seeing as dogs have been consuming animal "products" (probably mostly meat) for as long as they existed as a species? It seems a little like attempting to feed pigs a purely meat diet? Sure, they are all "omnivores" (not everybody agrees that dogs are, indeed omnivores actually), but that does not necessarily make a diet of only eg or only meat healthy?

I would prefer to live a "no kill" lifestyle across the board, I choose to not use products that test on animals as much as possible (ie: the ones that admit to it!) or eat animal products, but in choosing to own dogs I choose to feed them meat.

Some people don't want to make the sacrifice in their pets lives and want to continue their "no kill" lifestyle (or whatever term they choose to use) by feeding their pets a veg*n diet.

It probably hasn't occured to you because you aren't veg*n - but it's probably crossed the mind of most veg*ns ;)

[Dame Aussie]

Can I ask what the reasons are for wanting to feed a dog a fully vegan diet?

Obviously if it is about not wanting to kill another animal for food then there is not much that can be done but if there are "only" concerns as to how ethically the animal was raised, maybe raising your own rabbits or guinea pigs or even chickens for meat might be an option?

The reason I ask is that I don't believe anybody would want to feed their dog a vegan diet simply because they believe it is healthier for the dog unless the dog has a medical condition?

Or is that the reasoning? If so, I wonder why?

I am not trying to offend anyone, just seriously wondering since it has never occurred to me to not feed my dog any animal products, seeing as dogs have been consuming animal "products" (probably mostly meat) for as long as they existed as a species? It seems a little like attempting to feed pigs a purely meat diet? Sure, they are all "omnivores" (not everybody agrees that dogs are, indeed omnivores actually), but that does not necessarily make a diet of only eg or only meat healthy?

I would prefer to live a "no kill" lifestyle across the board, I choose to not use products that test on animals as much as possible (ie: the ones that admit to it!) or eat animal products, but in choosing to own dogs I choose to feed them meat.

Some people don't want to make the sacrifice in their pets lives and want to continue their "no kill" lifestyle (or whatever term they choose to use) by feeding their pets a veg*n diet.

It probably hasn't occured to you because you aren't veg*n - but it's probably crossed the mind of most veg*ns ;)

This.