Maremmas In Show.

[BlackJaq]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

I hope you are referring to Maremmas only, since some breeds are liver only; Weimaraners are dd, which is dilute liver. Any other colour is a disqualifying fault. Also, this colour is recessive so any other colour bespeaks another breed's influence (i.e. the dog is a mixed breed). Weimaraners can have issues with sun burn in Australia and it is definitely a thing to keep an eye one and sunscreen may become necessary.

If the nose is liver the dog's coat will be liver, too, not white (is it EE?)

Not at all.

The Maremma is not a Pointer

This response makes no sense?

No pure bred Maremma should ever have a liver nose as liver is a recessive colour. Even a first generation mixed breed Maremma should not be able to be liver as two copies of the colour gene are needed.

Edited April 17, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Tralee]

How on earth do you come to the conclusion that skin cancer is not an issue in Italy??? Even a quick look at the literature shows that melanoma is just as much an issue in Europe as it is here.

Or is it that they consider good black pigment important there so dogs with lighter noses are rare?

Pink skin is not rare, I get to see many photos and a lot are lacking pigment.

Sub-types

It may sound shocking and something to cause alarm but it simply is not a biggy.

Just because Steve says it detracts from their suitablity for working, and that then means they are not bomb proof, does not make it gospel or override the efforts of the Italian Fathers of the Breed to conserve the gene pool.

And, Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world as a direct result of the Hole in the Ozone Layer.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

Weis aren't expected to work outside most their life so for Maremmas it's a serious issue. My coolie is a dilute so I have nothing against it, he doesn't work much but if was out in the sun he'd need sunscreen. You obviously have a very different situation with a working Maremma who may not see people for days, so sunscreen won't work.

[Are You Serious Jo]

And Australia has the highest incidence of skin cancer in the world as a direct result of the Hole in the Ozone Layer.

Therefore even more reason to only have black nose dogs!

[BlackJaq]

Yes obviously. I thought you may be inferring that no dogs with liver pigment should be bred, regardless of breed.

Also, if we go by what Tralee has been saying, Maremmas are not supposed to be left on their own for such long periods of time ;)

In any case, they may be suffering from too little pigmentation, but if the nose is genuinely liver you would have to question the pure bred status of the dog for the reason I have previously stated. The breed generally has a black nose, this would override the gene for liver pigmentation unless there were two liver copies in that dog... The liver pigmentation also influences the coat colour as well as the eye colour, it does not leave the nose to stand liver alone.

[Tralee]

If the nose is liver the dog's coat will be liver, too, not white (is it EE?)

Not at all.

The Maremma is not a Pointer

This response makes no sense?

No pure bred Maremma should ever have a liver nose as liver is a recessive colour. Even a first generation mixed breed Maremma should not be able to be liver as two copies of the colour gene are needed.

There are Lemon Pointers.

I believe they have both.

It is beyond me how my two dogs with full pigment could produce Chalice with a pink nose because your Genetics forbids it.

Seriously, are your serious?

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

Really this discussion has gone so off track should it not be moved into the breeds 101 forum?

[mixeduppup]

My boy has less and less pigment in his nose every year. Is this lack of pigment or some kind of fading gene?

5-6mths

1.5yrs

3yrs

[Are You Serious Jo]

Maybe the liver noses in some dogs are what prevents the big awards in Ausralia, which is the reason tralee started this thread.

[espinay2]

The distinction should be made between liver pigment (not in maremma) and decreased black pigment which shows up as brown (think 'snow nose'). This problem sometimes surfaces in all white Pyr and is considered to be an unwanted and incorrect 'dilution' (not 'dilute') of the black pigment. As the standard calls for good black pigment it is not correct.

[Rebanne]

Maybe the liver noses in some dogs are what prevents the big awards in Ausralia, which is the reason tralee started this thread.

possible, maybe they just aren't up to the standard judges think they should be.

[Are You Serious Jo]

The nose colour is part of the standard so it may be a contributing factor. I do also think they just don't show as well so the dogs with presence are always going to overshadow them.

[myValkyrie]

not long at all then. 144 registered puppies, I know of at least 15 born unreg in the last year or so. I imagine there would be a lot

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too.

I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe.

And then how many are desexed.

Hence the reason for this thread.

The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern.

I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons.

I have some of both types - registered dogs & farmbred dogs and can see advantages in each. With a registered dog you have the line knowledge & some breeder support (this can vary a lot - some breeders simply don't have the livestock knowledge necessary to advise re working situations). Farmbred dogs (& I don't mean accidental, designer or pet breedings) are usually the product of dogs that have proven themselves to be assets to someone who is primarily a livestock breeder - they tend to be somewhat tougher, very physically sound & resilient, with minimal coat. Dogs that bite/chase stock, fight with other dogs, constantly seek to escape, fail to bond with stock or aren't healthy/sound/easy care simply do not get the chance to reproduce.

Pigment is stressed at judge training. Pigment is VERY important

as is a harsh servicable double coat that sheds out with little to no help at all!!!

As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see.

They do exist :) & are an absolute joy to deal with compared to some of the huge fluffy, cottony pelts that are, I guess, more commonly seen

[myValkyrie]

Really this discussion has gone so off track should it not be moved into the breeds 101 forum?

You're right - it has become a bit epic :)

[BlackJaq]

The distinction should be made between liver pigment (not in maremma) and decreased black pigment which shows up as brown (think 'snow nose'). This problem sometimes surfaces in all white Pyr and is considered to be an unwanted and incorrect 'dilution' (not 'dilute') of the black pigment. As the standard calls for good black pigment it is not correct.

This. There is a genetic difference between LIVER pigment and a fading black nose, which may appear pink.

Surely a "breeder" should know at least basic colour genetics, especially where their own breed is concerned

[Steve]

I am breeding Maremma which are born to primarily work IN AUSTRALIA and even if pets they live in Australia .Ive exported a couple for work in countries with similar sunshine intensity and worse biting insects but prefer not to in future.

Im not interested in whether or not lighter pigment is a problem in any other country .Ive no interest in considering or debating what other breeds of dogs have liver pigment etc. I dont want to breed dogs with this fault and because its been ignored as non important it is now in registered lines and more and more will be seen and more and more will carry it. Until you have seen a Maremma with light pigment working dont tell me its no biggy because they suffer terribly for it.And its not just about cancer - its sunburn and flies and mozzie bites.

For me its a biggy and its a big big deal that where it is in a pedigree isnt obvious so it becomes impossible to avoid eventually getting it in a whelping box and all of us end up having to deal with this contamination with pups born which are not as capable of living a life without what goes with light pigment because its not a biggy for them. Have no choice but in Choosing breeding dogs where we dont know if they carry it ! Then you question why someone breeding dogs they use for work doesn't want to go near show lines or someone who needs them to work doesn't consider registered lines?

[mixeduppup]

So would my boy's nose be referred to as 'fading nose'?

[Steve]

So would my boy's nose be referred to as 'fading nose'?

The cause is thought to be a breakdown of an enzyme called tyrosinase, which is responsible for producing pigment. I won't get too technical but look it up when you get a minute – its pretty interesting especially when you note how the amino acid Tyrosine operates and the potential other things which it may affect that you wouldn't notice straight away or connect to an inability to breakdown and convert some amino acids which are produced by the body. Its tied up with melanin and phenylalanine too.

Apparently, the enzyme becomes less efficient as the dog ages too, causing the nose to fade from black to brown or pink. Tyrosinase is also temperature sensitive; it works more effectively in warmer weather, which explains the fading of the nose during winter months and why it is more common in dogs which live outside with no heating in winter. In these cases when the temperature rises so does the nose pigment return to black. Its also affected by stress too.

Tyrosine is found naturally in lots of foods so you might want to add a bit more of these things to his diet or even just go after a supplement especially in the winter – can't do any harm.

The lack of pigment in Maremma may be the result of a genetic fault in the dog being able to manufacture this enzyme or it may be nutritional or nutritional related to the grandmother. Its probably not just about colour genetics - We need more research.especially as this enzyme is associated with cancer.

Years ago every human baby born was tested for this enzyme and it identified those as suffering PKU and unable to synthesise phenylanaline.

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems and testing for this enzyme may solve part of the puzzle in lieu of a DNA marker but either way we shouldn't be breeding with dogs which have lack of pigment in its face and feet or produce puppies with this before we know what the consequences are for the breed into the future as an inability or reduced ability to manufacture this enzyme isn't just responsible for fading noses its also a bunch of other things which may have a profound affect on the viability and quality of life of the breed.

Its is a biggy Tralee.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Steve

[zoiboy]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

YES !!!!!!

[mixeduppup]

I'm going to do more research. I'm worried Ammo will get cancer now. :/