Maremmas In Show.

[Rebanne]

Didnt look timid to me. Looked that he just didn't want a stranger putting his hands on him so he was trying to move out of the way - normal for a Maremma on a lead being approached by a stranger I would think. In a working situation I expect that my Maremma will not stay still to be handled by anyone except me - not timidly moving away but moving away to make a statement - please don't touch me, because I cant do my job and Im vulnerable when you do. They would stand 10 feet back and bark their heads of making you think they will kill you if you come into their paddock. Anything that is different is a potential threat and they dont go after and stand up to something thats a threat unless its the very last option open to them - they back up as far as they can go and only stand their ground when the warnings haven't been taken and the species they are guarding is under threat. Anyway I didn't think that dog was timid or afraid.

Maremma as a companion is different but regardless each will react based on what it is used to and what is normal - Hard balancing act. I want to know a dog in the ring can also work well but getting them to accept what is normal in the ring and have strangers examining it in an environment it doesnt know where and what the risk factors are to its human and still go home and work takes a hell of a lot of training and exposure to get them to be happy to be handled by strangers in the ring but never in the paddock.

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working.

[Steve]

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working.

Yes I know we are talking about the show ring - my comments re working were in response to Espinay asking re behaviour when they are working etc

I would expect if someone were showing a dog of any breed but especially this breed that it would be a definite full on effort to ensure they were accustomed to being treated that way and handled by strangers for exactly that purpose - so it can be judged. There is no denying that this is a challenge but many dogs Ive bred are able to be in situations which ordinarily a working Maremma wouldn't see.We even have one going into a nursing home twice a week where an old lady grabs it by the face and kisses its nose and scrunches her head into his neck to tell him she loves him. He makes no move to back off or try to avoid this contact - happy for her to do anything to him she wants. He happily allows all of them to hug him and pat him but take him back home and he is back to a working dog. This is because he sees both as normal - he has always done this since he was 8 weeks old. I have people and especially children coming and going all day and if I allow the stranger up onto my porch any dog on my property is happy to be touched and handled because they know this to be normal - yet the same dogs are completely different with anyone I dont invite onto the porch. So while I agree with you that the judge needs to lay hands on it and it needs to be open to being handled and judged by strangers and this dog clearly wasn't comfortable with what was happening - my point is that I saw the reaction as normal Maremma behaviour when they are out of their comfort zone,when confronted with something they are not used to though in order for it to do what is required of it the owner needs to work more at making the dog feel that what is happening is normal - rather than making too many excuses for it not to do as required because its a breed trait. Not sure I'm explaining it properly but Tralee is right its normal Maremma behaviour but I believe that if its going to attend shows and be expected to be handled then that's exactly what it should be used to and trained to do.

[Tralee]

Hmm. I would call that more 'shy' than 'standoffish' or reserved ?? Is that type of thing accepted in the Maremma? Certainly we see it from time to time in the Pyrenean, but it is not preferred behaviour and would be marked down in a French club breed temperament test. I note the Maremma was the only LGD breed there to display this type of behaviour.

Overawed is how the seasoned commentators described it.

It is not a fault and a better word would be aloof if bias can be put aside.

The Maremma was bred to keep the bears, the wolves and the thieves (substitute judges here) off the sheep and lambs.

I notice that the Maremma is quite confident until the Judge lunges at it. Unfortunatly, the Judge only offers his hand as a second gesture but the Maremma still greats him. This acceptance shows the judge a lack of aggression.

The judge should have given the dog time to approach him. The Maremma decides if it is going to allow someone approach it and they do not cope with having their role as guardian usurped. It is very important to understand that the Maremma is not submissive, particularly with strangers.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Didnt look timid to me. Looked that he just didn't want a stranger putting his hands on him so he was trying to move out of the way - normal for a Maremma on a lead being approached by a stranger I would think. In a working situation I expect that my Maremma will not stay still to be handled by anyone except me - not timidly moving away but moving away to make a statement - please don't touch me, because I cant do my job and Im vulnerable when you do. They would stand 10 feet back and bark their heads of making you think they will kill you if you come into their paddock. Anything that is different is a potential threat and they dont go after and stand up to something thats a threat unless its the very last option open to them - they back up as far as they can go and only stand their ground when the warnings haven't been taken and the species they are guarding is under threat. Anyway I didn't think that dog was timid or afraid.

Maremma as a companion is different but regardless each will react based on what it is used to and what is normal - Hard balancing act. I want to know a dog in the ring can also work well but getting them to accept what is normal in the ring and have strangers examining it in an environment it doesnt know where and what the risk factors are to its human and still go home and work takes a hell of a lot of training and exposure to get them to be happy to be handled by strangers in the ring but never in the paddock.

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working.

I take your point, we are talking about the show ring.

But the mistake that is being made with Maremma, and the consequences are as potentially severe as some of the more infamous examples of breeding for the show ring, is that demanding that Maremma present 'out of temperament' is simply trying to fit the dog to the show ring rather than allowing the dog to be what it is and adapting our judging procedures to examine the breed fairly.

[myValkyrie]

I believe a couple of mine would have behaved in a similar fashion in that environment - some would have been more assertive about their space. I've seen a Maremma sent from the showring for a lot less & been sent myself for a dog objecting to being handled - both dogs were exceptional workers & did get a little better re being handled but were never even close to being happy about it. My dogs are first & foremost working dogs - their contribution to what I do is enormous & I can't overstate how much we value them.

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

[Steve]

I believe a couple of mine would have behaved in a similar fashion in that environment - some would have been more assertive about their space. I've seen a Maremma sent from the showring for a lot less & been sent myself for a dog objecting to being handled - both dogs were exceptional workers & did get a little better re being handled but were never even close to being happy about it. My dogs are first & foremost working dogs - their contribution to what I do is enormous & I can't overstate how much we value them.

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Me too.

[Tralee]

I wouldn't expect them to be happy but I would expect them to put up with it. I get your point Steve but if the dog won't obey it's owner (handler) and the judge can't lay hands on the dog then the dog can't be judged properly. And we are talking about them in the show ring, not out working.

Yes I know we are talking about the show ring - my comments re working were in response to Espinay asking re behaviour when they are working etc

I would expect if someone were showing a dog of any breed but especially this breed that it would be a definite full on effort to ensure they were accustomed to being treated that way and handled by strangers for exactly that purpose - so it can be judged. There is no denying that this is a challenge but many dogs Ive bred are able to be in situations which ordinarily a working Maremma wouldn't see.We even have one going into a nursing home twice a week where an old lady grabs it by the face and kisses its nose and scrunches her head into his neck to tell him she loves him. He makes no move to back off or try to avoid this contact - happy for her to do anything to him she wants. He happily allows all of them to hug him and pat him but take him back home and he is back to a working dog. This is because he sees both as normal - he has always done this since he was 8 weeks old. I have people and especially children coming and going all day and if I allow the stranger up onto my porch any dog on my property is happy to be touched and handled because they know this to be normal - yet the same dogs are completely different with anyone I dont invite onto the porch. So while I agree with you that the judge needs to lay hands on it and it needs to be open to being handled and judged by strangers and this dog clearly wasn't comfortable with what was happening - my point is that I saw the reaction as normal Maremma behaviour when they are out of their comfort zone,when confronted with something they are not used to though in order for it to do what is required of it the owner needs to work more at making the dog feel that what is happening is normal - rather than making too many excuses for it not to do as required because its a breed trait. Not sure I'm explaining it properly but Tralee is right its normal Maremma behaviour but I believe that if its going to attend shows and be expected to be handled then that's exactly what it should be used to and trained to do.

I could add that in other words, some Maremma do present with a 'therapy dog' temperament but it in not the correct temperament. I have had an extremely gregarious dog who was unequalled in her dog friendliness and people friendliness. However, this meant she lacked other desirable traits. She would work with foul against foxes but not thieves.

It really isn't rocket science.

What we saw with Anna Albrigo's dog, and she has bred dozens of National BOB's and International BIS's, is the Judge attempting to examine any other dog but not a Maremma. This is extremely frustating and has caused myself and others great consternation, time, and money in defending our dogs that are reported for aggression, in and out of the ring, only to be ultimately found to be without fault.

There are two possible outcomes.

The first would be a tragedy.

The Maremma is distorted into a dog with a therapy type temperament just to accomadate the show ring.

Or, the Maremma is judged correctly as aloof and wary of strangers, alert but not aggressive.

It really is simple, if the Maremma is to be judged fairly, then it must be allowed to remain unsubmissive, and to preserve its independent role as a guardian.

[zoiboy]

That type of reaction in a working situation would not be good either IMO. Timidity possibly and often likely leading to fear aggression as a reaction (standing off, possibly 'dancing around/shying off' and barking and reacting when pushed) for example - rather than boldness and facing up to a threat, or discriminating when someone or something is not a threat - is not how I would want a LGD to act. I would rather see a dog that is confident, even if wary (not backing off) and not 'giving' of affection etc (watch the reaction of the Pyrenean Shepherd to being handled as a comparison. This is a breed that is also known to be quite wary and standoffish with strangers). Any other Maremma folk out there who can comment?

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public.

The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion.

[Rebanne]

I take your point, we are talking about the show ring.

But the mistake that is being made with Maremma, and the consequences are as potentially severe as some of the more infamous examples of breeding for the show ring, is that demanding that Maremma present 'out of temperament' is simply trying to fit the dog to the show ring rather than allowing the dog to be what it is and adapting our judging procedures to examine the breed fairly.

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

[Rebanne]

It really is simple, if the Maremma is to be judged fairly, then it must be allowed to remain unsubmissive, and to preserve its independent role as a guardian.

How can you judge it fairly if you can't touch it?

[Tralee]

That type of reaction in a working situation would not be good either IMO. Timidity possibly and often likely leading to fear aggression as a reaction (standing off, possibly 'dancing around/shying off' and barking and reacting when pushed) for example - rather than boldness and facing up to a threat, or discriminating when someone or something is not a threat - is not how I would want a LGD to act. I would rather see a dog that is confident, even if wary (not backing off) and not 'giving' of affection etc (watch the reaction of the Pyrenean Shepherd to being handled as a comparison. This is a breed that is also known to be quite wary and standoffish with strangers). Any other Maremma folk out there who can comment?

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public.

The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion.

A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group.

I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months.

I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip.

I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye.

Certainly, I have been seeing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently.

Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong.

The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed.

As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

[Tralee]

That type of reaction in a working situation would not be good either IMO. Timidity possibly and often likely leading to fear aggression as a reaction (standing off, possibly 'dancing around/shying off' and barking and reacting when pushed) for example - rather than boldness and facing up to a threat, or discriminating when someone or something is not a threat - is not how I would want a LGD to act. I would rather see a dog that is confident, even if wary (not backing off) and not 'giving' of affection etc (watch the reaction of the Pyrenean Shepherd to being handled as a comparison. This is a breed that is also known to be quite wary and standoffish with strangers). Any other Maremma folk out there who can comment?

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public.

The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion.

A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group.

I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months.

I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip.

I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye.

Certainly, I have been viewing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently.

Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong.

The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed.

As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

[Tralee]

That type of reaction in a working situation would not be good either IMO. Timidity possibly and often likely leading to fear aggression as a reaction (standing off, possibly 'dancing around/shying off' and barking and reacting when pushed) for example - rather than boldness and facing up to a threat, or discriminating when someone or something is not a threat - is not how I would want a LGD to act. I would rather see a dog that is confident, even if wary (not backing off) and not 'giving' of affection etc (watch the reaction of the Pyrenean Shepherd to being handled as a comparison. This is a breed that is also known to be quite wary and standoffish with strangers). Any other Maremma folk out there who can comment?

I have watched it a few times and I agree with Espinay. The Maremma is not showing a sound temperament at all. Both the Anotialian and the Pyrenean are also flock guards and they behaved just the way a flock guard should behave in public.

The Maremma has been around a long time and should have reasonable manners really. Sadly it is overtly shy, to the point of not holding it's ground. Behaviour aside he has flat feet, a pinched chest, round eye, a very short tail and a coat that is not as correct as it might be. Not a dog I would want watching my flock or as a companion.

A critique of the dog chosen by Anna Albigo was not the issue being raised but the way it was judged. It had won BOB so supposedly it had done enough to enter Group.

I do have criticisms as well, but we don't know the age of the dog. I'm thinking well under 18 months.

I noticed the dog had an incorrect mouth, with an extremely pendulous lower lip.

I would be concerned if it lacked pigment, a horse hair coat and an almond shaped eye.

Certainly, I have been viewing much better dogs, from and, in Italy recently.

Nevertheless, your analysis of the temperament is wrong.

The Maremma does not cope with its role as guardain being usurped and what you see and ignorantly (constructive criticism here) call timid is the neurotic response that can be amplified in many Maremma and is the cause of too many dogs being rehomed.

As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

[Rebanne]

As I said, if we can put our biases aside and accept what others who know more say, then the Maremma might get a fair go.

so you are saying the Maremma must be judged differently to every other breed of dog entered in the show? How is that fair?

All the winners you have put up, are you saying the ones who do not let a judge go over them, they have the correct temperament, the ones who will tolerate an examination have incorrect temperament? Which is which?

[myValkyrie]

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

[Rebanne]

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them.

[zoiboy]

How can you judge it fairly if you can't touch it?

The simple answer is, you can not judge it fairly if you can not touch it.

A good Maremma is s strong minded dog who is comfortable in his own skin and the

BOB at Crufts this year is not.

[myValkyrie]

For my 2 cents worth, the attributes rewarded in the showring - particularly the sweet, bouncy, outgoing temperament & the big , fluffy glamorous coat - are not necessarily attributes you appreciate in a good working dog. IMHO the Maremma as a breed is fortunate that it has, at present, a solid future performing it's original function & doing a great job - if in producing that, the downside is a dog that is not particularly suited to showing & being handled by strangers, I'm good with that

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work?

I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it.

But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them.

I guess people show them to be judged against their breed standard & to get points towards their CH title, maybe win a fringie - I dunno :) For mine, I no longer show much at all simply because, you're right, they don't like it - I judge my dogs purely on their willingness to work (work ethic if you like), ability to work (courage, judgement & independent decision making), their physical soundness, minimal coat care & their ease of getting along with me & mine. They are brilliant at what they are bred to do - I could care less about show results - but that's me

[Rebanne]

I guess people show them to be judged against their breed standard & to get points towards their CH title, maybe win a fringie - I dunno :) For mine, I no longer show much at all simply because, you're right, they don't like it - I judge my dogs purely on their willingness to work (work ethic if you like), ability to work (courage, judgement & independent decision making), their physical soundness, minimal coat care & their ease of getting along with me & mine. They are brilliant at what they are bred to do - I could care less about show results - but that's me

Good on you. I enjoy showing, my dogs are happy to go along with me. If they disliked it we would all retire to the couch.

[espinay2]

I find it interesting that the behavior is something considered normal by some for the maremma. While the behaviour is certainly seen in some pyreneans, it is a trait that show and working breeders alike in that breed do not prefer and indeed 'overly shy' is an eliminating fault in the FCI standard. The French behaviour test includes a range of things that test this, but being approached by a judge in that manner is one a Pyr would not be expected to back away from. I note though that 'overly shy' is also in the FCI maremma standard as an eliminating fault. So then what behaviour for the maremma constitutes 'overly shy'? It is interesting to compare different interpretations.

Edited March 14, 2013 by espinay2