Puppies Being Sold With Fatal Diseases

[BlackJaq]

People buy horses, which are living things, too, all the time and I have never heard of anybody returning a horse to a breeder for a partial refund after two years or having the breeder give the kind of guarantees that dog breeders re expected to give....

Some people seem to have slightly unreasonable expectations in my opinion. Personally, if it was within my power, I would take back a puppy that was no longer wanted or perhaps replace one if there was a valid reason, but certainly not after two years and with a diagnosis like HD.

To be honest I would probably PTS a dog with a severe case of HD or ED or similar issue rather than going through an op like that, and not only for monetary reasons.

Equally I would also not guarantee that a puppy was going to be a working gun dog or a show quality dog. Nobody knows these things when they re babies. You can have an idea that they might or probably are going to be suitable, but even a puppy with the best genetic material can get a scare and become afraid of gun shots or fail to do decent water work or whatever, or for some reason or another it might not shape up to be the next champion in the ring. There is just no way to guarantee these things, you can only try and do your best and use only dogs that have the qualities you want and then keep everything crossed that not only puppies come out as expected, but also that owners raise and train their puppies correctly.

Edited September 29, 2013 by BlackJaq

[espinay2]

Its not unreasonable for a health guarantee for basic good health for a limited period of time after the dog goes home or for something longer term that the breeder should or could test for which has a definite DNA test and gives the status of the parents but it isn't possible for anyone to be able to predict how long a living being can remain healthy and not show something into the future that no one could have anticipated. Its certainly unfair to expect a breeder to be held responsible for things far into the future which are polygenic and impacted by environment, chemicals, feeding,exercise,stress etc.

This. This is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect a dog to be 'fault free' like an appliance. We can't control DNA (outside of the tiny tiny part that we can do a DNA test for - in SOME breeds). We are dealing with living breathing things and just like human health and genetics, much of it is out of our control. We have as much chance of developing a 'fault free' dog as we do a 'fault free' human.

Edited September 30, 2013 by espinay2

[sandgrubber]

Its not unreasonable for a health guarantee for basic good health for a limited period of time after the dog goes home or for something longer term that the breeder should or could test for which has a definite DNA test and gives the status of the parents but it isn't possible for anyone to be able to predict how long a living being can remain healthy and not show something into the future that no one could have anticipated. Its certainly unfair to expect a breeder to be held responsible for things far into the future which are polygenic and impacted by environment, chemicals, feeding,exercise,stress etc.

This. This is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect a dog to be 'fault free' like an appliance. We can't control DNA (outside of the tiny tiny part that we can do a DNA test for - in SOME breeds). We are dealing with living breathing things and just like human health and genetics, much of it is out of our control. We have as much chance of developing a 'fault free' dog as we do a 'fault free' human.

Does this imply it conscionable to breed dogs with known late-onset illnesses that are likely to be inherited (eg, epilepsy, propensity to bloat)?

[espinay2]

Its not unreasonable for a health guarantee for basic good health for a limited period of time after the dog goes home or for something longer term that the breeder should or could test for which has a definite DNA test and gives the status of the parents but it isn't possible for anyone to be able to predict how long a living being can remain healthy and not show something into the future that no one could have anticipated. Its certainly unfair to expect a breeder to be held responsible for things far into the future which are polygenic and impacted by environment, chemicals, feeding,exercise,stress etc.

This. This is not unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to expect a dog to be 'fault free' like an appliance. We can't control DNA (outside of the tiny tiny part that we can do a DNA test for - in SOME breeds). We are dealing with living breathing things and just like human health and genetics, much of it is out of our control. We have as much chance of developing a 'fault free' dog as we do a 'fault free' human.

Does this imply it conscionable to breed dogs with known late-onset illnesses that are likely to be inherited (eg, epilepsy, propensity to bloat)?

A breeder can work to minimize risk in breeding decisions based on what they know. That intent is important. But they will never ever be able to eliminate risk.

With a TV it is reasonable that a manufacturer knows everything about the product and how it works. You start from scratch each time to build it and don't use two previous model TV's to make it. There is an expectation that the manufacturer knows everything about every component in it and can make it 'fault free'. A dog is not a TV. As 'manufacturers' a breeder does not have total control of their product nor do they know everything about every part of a dogs DNA. We can work with what we know, but can never guarantee 'fault free' for the part we don't know.

Edited September 30, 2013 by espinay2

[Hurz]

We picked up a pup on Sunday lunchtime from a registered breeder. It was in good health and had two servings of the food the breeder was giving her at our place. It didn't come in contact with any other dogs and only stayed in our house and backyard.

On Monday morning she didn't finish her food and then didn't touch any other food afterwards. She started vomiting first in the late afternoon and then had horribly smelling diarrhea during the night.

We took her to the vet in the morning and a stool test revealed that it was parvo. She has now been in quarantine at the vet since Tuesday and is on medication and on an IV drip. The vomiting and diarrhea apparently has stopped last night and she appears very lively. Hopefully she'll pull through...

The breeder has refunded the purchase price of the dog already but doesn't believe that the dog picked the virus up while it was under her care. I do believe that she is a good breeder and that she took every precaution to deliver a healthy dog and this was a freak incident.

Most literature says that the incubation time of parvo is at least 3 days. I'm puzzled how this could have happened and I'm interested in your opinion about this?

Edited October 31, 2013 by Hurz

[Steph M]

The breeder has refunded the purchase price of the dog already but doesn't belief that the dog picked the virus up while it was under her care. I do believe that she is a good breeder and that she took every precaution to deliver a healthy dog and this was a freak incident.

Most literature says that the incubation time of parvo is at least 3 days. I'm puzzled how this could have happened and I'm interested in your opinion about this?

Well good breeder or none she would be a touch foolhardy to not be taking precautions just in case and cleaning everything in sight.

I hope she does so, as parvo is awful but the worst thing is it can be spread so many ways. You can walk it into the house on your shoes, your car tyres or anything. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the breeder, it's a freak thing in most cases but parvo scares the sht out of me and I would be dousing everything in bleach just in case. Hope she pulls through, you must be beside yourself.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Steph M

[tdierikx]

Parvo can incubate and become deadly within 48 hours... I have seen it first hand. I have also seen pups with vaccinosis present similarly to parvo and test positive for parvo (a false positive can occur if the pup has been vaccinated with a modified live virus vaccine within a week previous to testing) - but they haven't necessarily actually had parvo at all. Parvo or vaccinosis - the treatment is the same - the dog is put on a drip and supported while it heals itself.

How old is your pup, and when did it have it's last vaccination shot? Was it wormed recently also? Sometimes a combination of vaccination and worming on the same day (especially if wormed with Drontal) can make small pups sick.

The breeder has stepped up by refunding the purchase price, but this doesn't mean that they have admitted any fault for your pup being ill - they may well have taken every precaution and indeed sold you a healthy pup that just happened to manage to come into contact with parvo around the time you picked her up. No-one can be "blamed" for this happening - sometimes it just happens regardless how careful all parties have been.

The good news is that your little one seems to be coming good relatively quickly.

T.

[sandgrubber]

If there were several pups in the litter and yours was the only one to get sick, chances are the pup picked up the virus somewhere outside the breeder's premises.

If other pups came down with it, it's clear that the infection was contacted at the breeder's place.

Parvo is so deadly and so feared by breeders that even low life BYB's fear it, and will take preventative measures where they can. An uncontrolled epidemic will put you out of business as a breeder.

[Hurz]

How old is your pup, and when did it have it's last vaccination shot? Was it wormed recently also? Sometimes a combination of vaccination and worming on the same day (especially if wormed with Drontal) can make small pups sick.

She's nine weeks old now and had her vac shot at 6 weeks of age. So I don't think it was caused by the vaccination itself. I don't know when she was wormed and what product they used.

But I agree with you that nobody can be blamed for it. Freak accident despite all precautions.

Update from this morning is that she's very bouncy and being force fed now. Hopefully she can keep some food down soon.