Tug

[Yonjuro]

Hello,

I have invested in the leather tug set from K9 http://www.k9pro.com.au/tug-kit-leather-young-dog-or-new-trainer-1342.html

I am hoping to get some advice on training techniques so I can have some fun with my Husky puppy that is almost 6 months old.

I really know next to nothing about this, I want to use this training to stimulate both mind and body.

I do have a trainer that I have been seeing for the last 8 weeks and I am sure she will be able to help and I will be seeing her next week, but just wanted to do a bit of homework and hopefully get some advice from the knowledgeable people on this forum :)

[Aidan3]

The number one mistake that I see people make is to move the tug towards the dog. Keep it moving away from your dog. Think "what would prey do?" And don't play for too long, especially with a pup. You want to build drive and excitement, by going on longer than pup can keep up with, you end up reinforcing sub-par behaviours.

And if anyone tells you that it will make your pup dominant, or that you always have to win, just smile and nod and ignore them.

[Yonjuro]

The number one mistake that I see people make is to move the tug towards the dog. Keep it moving away from your dog. Think "what would prey do?" And don't play for too long, especially with a pup. You want to build drive and excitement, by going on longer than pup can keep up with, you end up reinforcing sub-par behaviours.

And if anyone tells you that it will make your pup dominant, or that you always have to win, just smile and nod and ignore them.

Excellent, that is great advice Aidan2! Just the sort of info that I was looking for to get me started.

And yeah, I have heard a lot of dominance myths, Kathy Kopellis McLeod sent me a booklet she wrote dispelling many of these.

Thanks again!

Edited April 21, 2014 by Yonjuro

[huski]

Hey Yonjurro! if you post up a vid when the tugs arrive I'm sure we can give you some pointers. :)

[Nekhbet]

Some pointers;

- Dont wave it up in the air or around your face

- Keep it low to the ground at the beginning to engage the pup. Wiggle it and keep it just out of reach of the pup to encourage it to follow

- Dont make it too hard. Read your dog. I see people tease and tease for ages until the dog loses interest because what's the point?!

- If the pup has the tug in it's mouth NEVER jerk it very hard and dont thrash your dog about. The point of a tug game is to teach controlled prey drive, not explosive blasts of prey drive. Slowly move the tug side to side with enough pressure that if the dogs bite weakens it slips out then give it a quick flick and wiggle like 'oops you lost it!!' It will also prevent the dog from learning to chew the tug toys which is a nervous behavior.

[Yonjuro]

Some pointers;

- Dont wave it up in the air or around your face

- Keep it low to the ground at the beginning to engage the pup. Wiggle it and keep it just out of reach of the pup to encourage it to follow

- Dont make it too hard. Read your dog. I see people tease and tease for ages until the dog loses interest because what's the point?!

- If the pup has the tug in it's mouth NEVER jerk it very hard and dont thrash your dog about. The point of a tug game is to teach controlled prey drive, not explosive blasts of prey drive. Slowly move the tug side to side with enough pressure that if the dogs bite weakens it slips out then give it a quick flick and wiggle like 'oops you lost it!!' It will also prevent the dog from learning to chew the tug toys which is a nervous behavior.

Fantastic, thanks Nekhbet! Any pointers on using the flirt pole?

edit, damn predictive spelling thingy is annoying.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Yonjuro

[Salukifan]

Word of caution: don't over do it, especially on a young, developing pup.

I've seen a few articles around suggesting that execessive tugging is leading to chiropractic issues in dogs. Moderation is called for.

ETA:sample internet article

Edited April 22, 2014 by Haredown Whippets

[Nekhbet]

It will be similar with the flirt pole. The problem though is through prey drive you want to also encourage focus from the dog. Flirts are good for the beginning but you will want to bring the tug closer to you otherwise the tug becomes the whole game which is a BIG problem down the road. The tug should have no value to the dog unless you're interacting with it. You also need to start teaching the out, focus to start the game again, rinse and repeat. Easy actually just take it slow and in short bursts.

Yes Haredown is right, people are way too rough with tug games in a developing dog. Like I said there is also the byproduct of chewing, over excitement, unfocussed prey etc so you end up with something you dont really want instead of control! Prey drive doesn't have to mean a shaking, drooling dog it's about precise focus and actually quiet behaviour from your dog all focussed straight onto you.

[Yonjuro]

Word of caution: don't over do it, especially on a young, developing pup.I've seen a few articles around suggesting that execessive tugging is leading to chiropractic issues in dogs. Moderation is called for.ETA:sample internet article

Thanks for the advice HW, much appreciated!

It will be similar with the flirt pole. The problem though is through prey drive you want to also encourage focus from the dog. Flirts are good for the beginning but you will want to bring the tug closer to you otherwise the tug becomes the whole game which is a BIG problem down the road. The tug should have no value to the dog unless you're interacting with it. You also need to start teaching the out, focus to start the game again, rinse and repeat. Easy actually just take it slow and in short bursts.Yes Haredown is right, people are way too rough with tug games in a developing dog. Like I said there is also the byproduct of chewing, over excitement, unfocussed prey etc so you end up with something you dont really want instead of control! Prey drive doesn't have to mean a shaking, drooling dog it's about precise focus and actually quiet behaviour from your dog all focussed straight onto you.

Thanks again Nekhbet!

[lovemesideways]

My biggest tip would be to never wiggle or jerk the toy around to try and get your puppy chasing it. Instead, you want your dogs movement to create movement in the toy. So puppy steps towards tug, it jerks away, puppy runs after tug, tug runs and wriggles away. Puppy is still and doesn't chase the tug? Tug is still and doesn't move.

This means that you can get your dog playing with any static toy, you don't have to jump and wiggle around to try and get them playing.

I have a video on teaching a dog to let go of a toy, this should imo be taught at the same time as starting tug :)

[Yonjuro]

My biggest tip would be to never wiggle or jerk the toy around to try and get your puppy chasing it. Instead, you want your dogs movement to create movement in the toy. So puppy steps towards tug, it jerks away, puppy runs after tug, tug runs and wriggles away. Puppy is still and doesn't chase the tug? Tug is still and doesn't move.

This means that you can get your dog playing with any static toy, you don't have to jump and wiggle around to try and get them playing.

I have a video on teaching a dog to let go of a toy, this should imo be taught at the same time as starting tug :)

Great, many thanks for the tips!

[RiverStar-Aura]

I don't want to hijack your thread Yonjuro but I've been wondering if anyone has pointers for teaching an older dog how to tug. With our agility training we've been encouraged to try using tug games as a reward rather than food. This is fine but Zeus is part beagle and much prefers food over toys and has little to no interest in tugging.

I've even purchased tug toys with built in pouches to hide food but he still shows no interest in them during training. I'm not having too many issues with his drive as he's a highly food driven dog, but I'd like to try and utilise this drive with toys too.

He's so different to my little terrier who just loves a good game of tug and I didn't even need to teach her how to do it. It's really funny how all dogs can be so different!!

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't want to hijack your thread Yonjuro but I've been wondering if anyone has pointers for teaching an older dog how to tug. With our agility training we've been encouraged to try using tug games as a reward rather than food. This is fine but Zeus is part beagle and much prefers food over toys and has little to no interest in tugging.

I've even purchased tug toys with built in pouches to hide food but he still shows no interest in them during training. I'm not having too many issues with his drive as he's a highly food driven dog, but I'd like to try and utilise this drive with toys too.

He's so different to my little terrier who just loves a good game of tug and I didn't even need to teach her how to do it. It's really funny how all dogs can be so different!!

I've done this with my Dally....a couple of things....don't ever pull the tug out at agility training unless your dog loves to tug. You put pressure on both agility training and the tug training and end up having issues with both. You also will tend to switch to food when your dog decides not to tug, thus reinforcing his decision not to tug. I use a LOT of cubed cheese in training as it's great to throw and easy to see on grass. Meanwhile, work on tug at home with a really awesome fluffy toy. I had a breakthrough with Zig after I'd been away for a few days...he was so excited to see me so instead of lying on the couch like I wanted to I grabbed his tug and played with him. Once I had him tugging at home I started tugging him out of the front yard (on leash). Then I started using slightly more boring tugs at home until he played enthusiastically with a rope tug. The fluffy tug was only used outside home. I would take him to a familiar park, play tug with the fluffy toy and then release him for a sniff and pee session (his favourite!) If he refused to play tug I would put him calmly back in the car and take him home. Too bad, so sad lol. Only when he could do this reliably did I produce the fluffy tug at training - but only when I was warming him up and not in class. I actually hid the toy in the bottom of my training bag and made a great pretence of trying to find it - Zig would get all excited and try to pinch things out of the bag - he'd spy the fluffy tug and triumphantly have a game with me. Then I'd put it away and go off to class and train with food. These games were super short and very intense. Gradually I increased the number of games and added simple commands before he got the tug and finally added it into training. In the beginning it was a warm up but finally developed into a reward. Trialling took a little longer and I approached it similarly. Now he tugs with real determination and will do so even if I have food in my hand. It's done wonders for his rear end strength, drive and most importantly it helped us overcome the "don't wanna, don't hafta" attitude as Susan Garrett puts it. When you choose times for tug training make sure the conditions are right for him - the dog should be bouncing out of his skin, minimal distractions, no food on you or used to train with that session or day and I never asked Zig to tug on a warm day as he quickly wilts.

Another idea for a tug toy is a chicken wing in an old sock. Completely disgusting but it just might work!

Edited April 24, 2014 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

My tips are:

When deciding when to tug with your dog, choose a time of day when your dog is naturally excited. With my dogs this is in the morning, it may be when you get home from work etc

Look at what your dog likes to put in their mouth. Do they like fluffy toys, things that crinkle (like water bottles, crinkled paper, toilet paper rolls), balls, etc.

This is my young dog's favourite. We are working towards using less exciting toys at home, but at the moment this one is the bees knees that I use around distractions http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2938&ParentCat=29

Also, remember to keep it very short!

One of my friends is currently using the chicken wing in a sock to help with tugging - and it seems to be working for her!

Edited April 24, 2014 by Kavik

[huski]

I will go against the grain here RA and say if your dog has little to no genetic prey drive I would probably be inclined to focus on working with food.

If you can only ever develop your dogs desire to tug for a couple of seconds on a cool day with no distractions around etc etc the reality is that your dog does not have enough prey drive to make that reward useable for agility anyway.

If your dog will only tug for food or when a toy is stuffed full of food it is in food drive. Not prey drive.

I know some people who have developed tug with food rewards and their dogs ended up valuing tug on it's own but the dog had to have a level of prey drive genetically there to bring it out in the first place.

I know many successful competitors who only use food and don't suffer for that decision.

It's useful to have a dog that likes both rewards but it's not necessary, I find a lot of the time people who think you need tug to build drive in a dog don't understand how to use food properly.

Just my two cents!

[Kavik]

I don't want to hijack your thread Yonjuro but I've been wondering if anyone has pointers for teaching an older dog how to tug. With our agility training we've been encouraged to try using tug games as a reward rather than food. This is fine but Zeus is part beagle and much prefers food over toys and has little to no interest in tugging.

I've even purchased tug toys with built in pouches to hide food but he still shows no interest in them during training. I'm not having too many issues with his drive as he's a highly food driven dog, but I'd like to try and utilise this drive with toys too.

He's so different to my little terrier who just loves a good game of tug and I didn't even need to teach her how to do it. It's really funny how all dogs can be so different!!

Also, if you want to use food but are looking for ways to be able to throw your reward, get the reward off you or make it more interactive, you can try a food container that you throw or place, then either have them retrieve the container to you and you reward with the food in it or race them to the container and reward there. Clean Run also have a big assortment of toys and containers for this such as

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=45&ParentCat=22

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=778&ParentCat=22

[sheena]

I have one dog that just looooooovvvvves to tug, but he is so drivey that he doesn't really need it before an agility run. Handy for training though. If we want him to be just "normal" & concentrate better then we will bring out the food rewards. My other border collie is only interested in tugging in the privacy of the loungroom & wont tug while other dogs are around. She will do anything for food though :laugh: I used to worry that her ability to perform in agility would be effected because I couldn't get her to tug at training or trials, but before a run, I just pull out the clicker & we do a bit of a warm up & she is fine, just working for food & the clicker, while we are waiting in line. I think the young guy loves his tug so much because his breeder introduces the tug (among other things) to her pups as soon as they start to get mobile. I don't think Bindi's breeder did any of this & it's a shame

ETA. to get drive into my "non-tugger" I use the clicker & a lot of targeting to get her to drive forward

Edited April 24, 2014 by sheena

[Yonjuro]

I don't want to hijack your thread Yonjuro but I've been wondering if anyone has pointers for teaching an older dog how to tug. With our agility training we've been encouraged to try using tug games as a reward rather than food. This is fine but Zeus is part beagle and much prefers food over toys and has little to no interest in tugging.

I've even purchased tug toys with built in pouches to hide food but he still shows no interest in them during training. I'm not having too many issues with his drive as he's a highly food driven dog, but I'd like to try and utilise this drive with toys too.

He's so different to my little terrier who just loves a good game of tug and I didn't even need to teach her how to do it. It's really funny how all dogs can be so different!!

No hijack at all, this is all part of the discussion that helps me considerably, please add as much as you like to this thread, it is all appreciated by me

[aussielover]

Sorry to hijack againI also have a question -

Ive been trying to builf speed and drive and I've switched to using a toy and tugging when training at home. I've found it produces much faster, exciting work from her. She is very enthusiastic to tug with any toy I choose, she's always been naturally toy motivated. Except when there's food around. Then she expects a food reward. Unfortunately I believe this is my fault, if I was starting over id use toys as I think she definitely has enough motivation for a game.

I think they way I have been rewarding her with food as well has created a half hearted effort. Even when I now try to make the food exciting by throwing etc the performance still isn't as good as with a toy. This is reversed in a trial situation though...

Is it possible to switch over to a toy/tug at this late stage (she's 4 years old) or is it too late?

[Yonjuro]

Sorry to hijack againI also have a question -

Ive been trying to builf speed and drive and I've switched to using a toy and tugging when training at home. I've found it produces much faster, exciting work from her. She is very enthusiastic to tug with any toy I choose, she's always been naturally toy motivated. Except when there's food around. Then she expects a food reward. Unfortunately I believe this is my fault, if I was starting over id use toys as I think she definitely has enough motivation for a game.

I think they way I have been rewarding her with food as well has created a half hearted effort. Even when I now try to make the food exciting by throwing etc the performance still isn't as good as with a toy. This is reversed in a trial situation though...

Is it possible to switch over to a toy/tug at this late stage (she's 4 years old) or is it too late?

This is not a hijack, simply good and relevant questions that are on topic :)