Loose Teeth - Urgent Advice Needed

[Rascalmyshadow]

For a dog so small I would not feed a whole chicken wing, way to much to much for a meal, too much fat can also cause pancreatitis.

Chicken necks are good but I noticed when my chi tries to eat them they are too big, if you do want to use them chop them in half and flatten with a hammer.

Never feed any cooked bones.

Osso bucco is definately way to hard for a tiny dogs teeth that could be a big part of the problems, even for bigger dogs they are hard to chew up properly and digest.

[osusoy]

thanks rascal, sounds like wingtips for manix once he recovers from the operation :) hopefully by switching to chicken wings (and starting brushing) we might be able to avoid this situation again. i'm also going to throw out any balls he can't fit in his mouth, the only explanation i can think of for the loose incisor is the way he carries them. i'm already very careful with him due to his size but it seems i need to be even more careful when it comes to his teeth.

feeling a lot more confident about the operation now thanks to all of you and managed to book a pre-surgery visit to the senior vet. he is hard to get appointments for but managed to organize that with only a 1 day delay for the operation :) seeing the consensus here, i'm sure he'll suggest surgery too but at least i know he'll make a better effort to look for causes and get the right scans done. it is a bit late for the ones that have to come out now but the more i understand why this happens, the better our chances are in trying to stop him from losing any more.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Good luck I'm sure everything will be fine, don't beat yourself up tiny dogs are prone to dental issues even when you do everything right.

I have my Claudia and Astro both going in for dentals tomorrow, hoping they don't loose anymore teeth but not too concerned if they do.

Oh and if your looking for wing tips Woolworths usually stock bags of them for a few $$$ I just divide them up and freeze them in sandwich bags.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Rascalmyshadow

[Alibi]

I will disagree, bigger is better, too small and they can be choked on, plus the whole point of cleaning through bones is that they have to work on them. I have a 3kg dog that tried to inhale a chicken tip and luckily was able to throw it back up with lots of noise and gasping. I now give her the whole wing for her to work on and I will take away what she can't finish. I also think a wing also isn't that fatty as to cause pancreatitis, it's has lots of skin yes it's not that fatty.

[Rascalmyshadow]

A 3kg dog is a bit different to a dog under 2kg, I've been feeding wing tips for years without ever an issue. If I fed my tiny chi an entire wing it would be way to much food for a meal and she would end up vomiting it back up, kinda defeats the purpose.

It doesn't take much for a dog that size to get too much fat especially if skin is on.

Also the teeth size in my 1.8kg chi compared to my 3kg chi x pom is quite a difference, a wing tip is enough to keep her chewing for long enough especially if I give her a couple.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Rascalmyshadow

[osusoy]

I will disagree, bigger is better, too small and they can be choked on, plus the whole point of cleaning through bones is that they have to work on them. I have a 3kg dog that tried to inhale a chicken tip and luckily was able to throw it back up with lots of noise and gasping. I now give her the whole wing for her to work on and I will take away what she can't finish. I also think a wing also isn't that fatty as to cause pancreatitis, it's has lots of skin yes it's not that fatty.

A 3kg dog is a bit different to a dog under 2kg, I've been feeding wing tips for years without ever an issue. If I fed my tiny chi an entire wing it would be way to much food for a meal and she would end up vomiting it back up, kinda defeats the purpose.

It doesn't take much for a dog that size to get too much fat especially if skin is on.

Also the teeth size in my 1.8kg chi compared to my 3kg chi x pom is quite a difference, a wing tip is enough to keep her chewing for long enough especially if I give her a couple.

ok, this is where we can provide some feedback when we get there. the one thing i don't have to worry about with Manix is food (quantity wise) as he is not one of those dogs you can overfeed (unlike my previous dogs who just ate as much as i gave them so i had to watch their weight). He is more interested in play than food and only eats as much as he needs to (doesn't care that much about treats either). Not sure about chicken necks yet so i'll put that aside for now but we can experiment with both full wings and tips. It will be supervised until I am convinced it is safe so we'll give the topic scientific due diligence and report back :)

This is a great discussion though as there aren't many for ridiculously tiny dogs (the pap thread seems dead these days). I am not sure if that term is used by breeders here but I wouldn't even call him a toy dog, he is a teacup. my previous dogs were a shih tzu and a maltese (both full size) and they were far less complicated to look after than Manix (except for weight management). He is unbelievably cute and his personality makes all the work worthwhile but i think i might pick a different breed when the time comes to get him a companion. He does seem to have a thing for shih tzus and mini poodles lol

[osusoy]

ok, we've seen the senior vet and it is periodontal disease as bad as that is, it is much better than not having a clear cause and having my hands tied about preventing it in the future. fortunately, all the important teeth can be saved but he will lose quiet a few including pretty much all his incisors With his help, I am now more confident that I can prevent this problem from happening again (as well as daily checks from me, he'll be having his teeth checked by the vet every 6 months instead of 12 now) but today is a very scary and depressing day.. nothing for me to do at this point other than hope for a safe surgery. they didn't have a problem with me insisting that the operation is performed by that senior vet (specialist in small animal surgery) so hopefully we'll get through this safely.

thanks again to everyone who contributed to the discussion. the advice i received here and other research made it much easier to understand the problem properly and have an educated discussion with the vet. i'll update once i get my baby back.

[Tassie]

looking forward to a good update from the surgery.

[Rappie]

Thanks for the update - hope it all goes well. I'm glad you feel more comfortable with the information and decision making process now

[osusoy]

Thanks for the well wishes :) Happy to report that the operation went well, all our blood tests are fine and Manix is in my lap recovering from all the anesthetics (he got local and general). It is heartbreaking seeing him like this when he was happily playing yesterday but hopefully he'll return to his normal self soon and be even happier than before without the toothaches.

We lost a lot of teeth but fortunately managed to save all his canines (one was expected to require extraction). We're also now armed with everything we can possibly use to prevent this in the future but it will be a couple of weeks before we start the new routines. We're just on puppy milk, wet food, anti-inflammatories and a round of antibiotics to wipe out any traces of the infection for now. i just hope the local wears off soon so i can try to give him the anti-inflammatories for tonight. Thinking about crushing the pill into some puppy milk as i'm sure he has had enough things shoved into his mouth today His tongue is still numb from the local so i'll give that a shot when he regains control of it.

Hopefully, I'll be able to post some new pictures of a very happy Manix soon and thanks again to everyone here for their advice and concern, they really helped :)

[osusoy]

ok, i guess happy will take a while :/ he is recovering well and i've been able to give him all his meds by hiding them in salmon (his favorite) so haven't had to force him to open his mouth except for 1 occasion a couple of days ago (by pushing against his health canines). in case anyone else searches for answers and finds this thread, whatever they gave him to numb his face lasted a lot longer than expected.i was starting to get worried about him not eating or drinking for that long but he managed to recover enough for those around 3-4am (brought him home at 6pm). everything else has been going well but starting last night, he seems to occasionally get sharp pains (he vocalises differently for those) for no apparent reason and then they go away as suddenly after a short time. My vet is closed today and i don't like taking my pets to those dodgy 24/7 clinics but if this requires immediate attention it is an option.

I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas on whether this is expected and/or sign of some problems with the healing process?

He was given a long lasting pain management injection after the operation and is now on anti inflammatories for pain management. we're also on antibiotics but i don't think that helps with pain (other than killing any remaining infection that might be causing pain). I am really worried about this as well but would prefer to take him to his own vet tomorrow unless it needs to be looked at more urgently?

As usual, any advice would be much appreciated.

Edited June 28, 2015 by osusoy

[Pjrt]

How long since he had the teeth out? 5 or 6 days? Anecdotally from stories my clients tell me, and first hand from many rescue dogs needing dentals and extractions, I would have expected your little guy to sail through and be back to normal or better.

If you feel he has pain, i am assuming you mean mouth pain? , that doesn't sound right to me starting so many days out from the surgery. I'd be worried there is infection or something? I'd perhaps get off to the vet to at least check temperature, heart rate, and a thorough examination of his mouth. etc.

Edited June 28, 2015 by blinkblink

[osusoy]

How long since he had the teeth out? 5 or 6 days? Anecdotally from stories my clients tell me, and first hand from many rescue dogs needing dentals and extractions, I would have expected your little guy to sail through and be back to normal or better.

If you feel he has pain, i am assuming you mean mouth pain? , that doesn't sound right to me starting so many days out from the surgery. I'd be worried there is infection or something? I'd perhaps get off to the vet to at least check temperature, heart rate, and a thorough examination of his mouth. etc.

It has been 5 days and this pain only started last night (seems to be a correlation with his grogginess going away after the operation). I assume it is his mouth as he doesn't have any other injuries etc. but, he doesn't show any signs of that (rubbing his mouth etc) and seems puzzled about it himself.

We'll definitely get a vet to look at this but I am just wondering if he'll be ok till tomorrow morning? I have lost another dog due to vet negligence at one of those 24/7 clinics so I'd like to avoid seeing them unless it is an emergency and I have no other options. His own vet (which i picked very carefully) is the preferred option but that will have to wait till tomorrow morning as they're closed on sunday. The pains are occasional and short lasting (then again, he might be hiding lesser pain the rest of the time) so I'm not sure if I should treat this as an emergency and go to a 24/7 or wait till tomorrow morning to see the vet we trust :/

[persephone]

He would have had a full anaesthetic - not just something to numb his gums ;) recovery often takes 24 hrs , depending ....and eating/drinking is not a priority ...

can you describe what he does when you say he is having these pain episodes?

is it anytime/when he does certain things ...when?

Does he move/jump/shake his head/step backwards/put his head down or similar when he yelps? Is he enjoying his walks /food/playtimes etc as normal ? Eating fine?

[Pjrt]

I don't think it is for anyone here to tell you yes or no to the vet now, for certain. We can only advise based on what we read here, what we think, and how we think we would act in the same/similar situation.

Personally I would want to know that his vitals and temp are normal, and that his mouth has been thoroughly examined. Better to be too safe now than for him to crash with a real emergency in the middle of the night. At least atm he may only need a reassuring (for you) check up until you can see your regular vet tomorrow. If he crashed during the night then you will have to rely on the emergency vet for critical care.

Only you can make this decision though.

[persephone]

oh, and most 24/7 clinics are not "dodgy" they can be the difference between life & death . Yes, accidents happen and vets can be negligent - that can happen in any clinic, anytime . Sorry you had a horrible experience .

[persephone]

Blink blink is correct - we cannot see or hear the dog ..and are not qualified to say what vet treatment he needs .... that is all up to you ....all we can do is give our opinions , and compare notes/help you feel as if you're not alone.

[osusoy]

He would have had a full anaesthetic - not just something to numb his gums ;) recovery often takes 24 hrs , depending ....and eating/drinking is not a priority ...

He had both. The procedure was done under general but they also gave him another for his gums (seemed to numb most of his face but he could walk around) and that's the one that took longer than expected, he recovered from the general as expected.

can you describe what he does when you say he is having these pain episodes?

is it anytime/when he does certain things ...when?

Does he move/jump/shake his head/step backwards/put his head down or similar when he yelps? Is he enjoying his walks /food/playtimes etc as normal ? Eating fine?

mainly happens when he is resting and he is resting most of the time as instructed by his vet. just suddenly yelps out of nowhere, changes where he is resting and then seems fine till it happens again?! where he is resting makes no difference either. seems completely random. he is eating fine, has a good appetite but isn't very active. that part i'm not as worried about as he is actually banned from any strenuous activities for 2 weeks and the vet said it would take about that long for him to return to completely normal. if he's not back to terrorizing everyone after 2 weeks, then I would be worried about the lethargy.

I don't think it is for anyone here to tell you yes or no to the vet now, for certain. We can only advise based on what we read here, what we think, and how we think we would act in the same/similar situation.

Fair enough, I was hoping to hear from someone who actually experienced this with their own dogs but any advice adds more information for decisionmaking so all is welcome.

Personally I would want to know that his vitals and temp are normal, and that his mouth has been thoroughly examined. Better to be too safe now than for him to crash with a real emergency in the middle of the night. At least atm he may only need a reassuring (for you) check up until you can see your regular vet tomorrow. If he crashed during the night then you will have to rely on the emergency vet for critical care.

Only you can make this decision though.

True, as above, I was really hoping for someone who had this experience so I can make an educated decision. There is nothing reassuring about going to a vet i don't know and trust. When it comes to serious health issues, we don't even see the other vets at the same practice, his vet was very carefully picked after much research. I guess it is about time I started researching for an equally trustworthy after hours vet as well. If anyone knows a reputable one around NE Melbourne, that would be helpful.

I think I'll just stay up monitoring him tonight and make the decision based on whether it is getting better or worse. If it does get worse or more regular, i'll risk the 24/7, otherwise we'll be at his vet's door when he comes to work in the morning.

Thanks to both for your responses, I'll keep one eye on Manix and one eye for further advice. The more opinions/recommendations I have, the easier it is to make these kind of decisions. I understand that some of you might be more trusting and see this as a "seeing a vet or not" situation but for me it is more a decision about seeing a possibly harmful vet or waiting a few more hours to see a vet i trust.

Extra Info: I can actually massage his mouth and he finds that comforting and shows no signs of pain when i do that?! The randomness is what I am finding most strange

Edited June 28, 2015 by osusoy

[Pjrt]

I am talking from experience! I ran a rescue shelter for a couple of years and have personally nursed quite a few dogs through some major & minor dental procedures. Often done on the same day as desexing, even adding removal of benign lumps and other stuff to the days proceedings. Some of the dogs I have nursed through dental extraction have had massive infection load and needed most teeth removed, sutures to the gums you name it. Every single one that I remember cruised through all of it with no after effects or ongoing pain issues.

If you went to the emergency vet for a check up, what possible problem could that cause? you have the absolute right to consent to what does or doesn't happen.

It is a worry that you have had a poor experience with a vet practice. I think yes, you need to look around for some out of hours options that you are comfortable with. In a perfect world we will always see the vet we want, but doggies have a habit of pulling a stunt on us at crazy hours on public holidays etc! Even at your regular vet, if the one you like is on holidays, you need to know you have somewhere else to turn.

Keep an eye on little Manix. I hope everything goes ok tonight and you can get some answers tomorrow.

[osusoy]

I am talking from experience! I ran a rescue shelter for a couple of years and have personally nursed quite a few dogs through some major & minor dental procedures. Often done on the same day as desexing, even adding removal of benign lumps and other stuff to the days proceedings. Some of the dogs I have nursed through dental extraction have had massive infection load and needed most teeth removed, sutures to the gums you name it. Every single one that I remember cruised through all of it with no after effects or ongoing pain issues.

If you went to the emergency vet for a check up, what possible problem could that cause? you have the absolute right to consent to what does or doesn't happen.

It is a worry that you have had a poor experience with a vet practice. I think yes, you need to look around for some out of hours options that you are comfortable with. In a perfect world we will always see the vet we want, but doggies have a habit of pulling a stunt on us at crazy hours on public holidays etc! Even at your regular vet, if the one you like is on holidays, you need to know you have somewhere else to turn.

Keep an eye on little Manix. I hope everything goes ok tonight and you can get some answers tomorrow.

no disrespect meant, i just read "We can only advise based on what we read here, what we think, and how we think we would act in the same/similar situation". nevertheless, if this hasn't happened to any of your dogs after surgery, someone who actually had this problem could shine more light. there is also the too tiny issue with us too, you can see from some of the earlier posts in this thread that advice was mixed due to his size (2kg).

and yes, they do tend to find the worse times to be unwell so a backup vet seems essential :/ I usually see one of the other vets at the practice if his vet is on holidays but they don't do after hours or sundays either Just realized my trusted vet would be right person to ask about this as he is well connected with other specialists! *facepalm* ok we'll find a trustworthy after hours vet tomorrow too.

i've been thinking and observing a bit more and he might just be freaking out too, i've tried applying gentle pressure to any part of him that can be sore and still no pain reactions, he just seems comforted by all that. moving from his bed to my lap seems to have reduced the frequency of these yelps too. will be a long night but hopefully i'll learn what to do about it tomorrow.

thanks for the well wishes :)