Filthy, Hungry And Cramped: Alleged Puppy Factory Raided Read More: H

[mita]

They are only toy breeds so not so difficult if its a full time job. Many Chi breeders have high numbers.

[/quot

Steve, I respectfully disagree. Small toy breeds need socialization as much as any size of dog. There's strong evidence that puppies that are bred & raised in their early weeks to be well socialized with humans, develop neural pathways that predispose them to living with humans without marked timidity or aggression. The evidence also shows that the mother dog must also be well socialized. So it's not a case of only making a special effort for puppies. Again, evidence has shown socialization is best achieved when the breeding establishment most resembles a 'homely', ie. home-like setting.

If someone thought he/she could breed/raise/socialize tibbies (or any other toy breed) in a cohort of 120, I'd have some strong home truths to tell them.

Edited June 9, 2016 by mita

[Scottsmum]

In my humble opinion to even come close to properly caring for and providing adequately enriched lives and exercise for somewhere around 120 dogs, you need an army of reliable family or volunteers, or paid staff.

Even in situations where commercial numbers are housed in clinical conditions, adequate enrichment and exercise is still a contentious issue for me.

They are only toy breeds so not so difficult if its a full time job. Many Chi breeders have high numbers.

Yuck. Sorry. Makes it sound like they don't deserve full and happy lives simply because they're small dogs.

[mita]

Does anyone know the breeds involved yet? I read chihuahuas figured largely... poor tiny little mites. The News reports also mentioned 'spaniels'. Are there cavs or cockers or some kind of field spaniel. It was hard to make out breeds in the TV news reports I saw.... there was just a frantic tumble of small dogs.

[Steve]

[

Steve, I respectfully disagree. Small toy breeds need socialization as much as any size of dog. There's strong evidence that puppies that are bred & raised in their early weeks to be well socialized with humans, develop neural pathways that predispose them to living with humans without marked timidity or aggression. The evidence also shows that the mother dog must also be well socialized. So it's not a case of only making a special effort for puppies. Again, evidence has shown socialization is best achieved when the breeding establishment most resembles a 'homely', ie. home-like setting.

If someone thought he/she could breed/raise/socialize tibbies (or any other toy breed) in a cohort of 120, I'd have some strong home truths to tell them.

Yes of course they need socialisation etc but a dozen chi's running around a lounge room is a lot easier than a dozen larger breeds in a back yard

[Steve]

In my humble opinion to even come close to properly caring for and providing adequately enriched lives and exercise for somewhere around 120 dogs, you need an army of reliable family or volunteers, or paid staff.

Even in situations where commercial numbers are housed in clinical conditions, adequate enrichment and exercise is still a contentious issue for me.

They are only toy breeds so not so difficult if its a full time job. Many Chi breeders have high numbers.

Yuck. Sorry. Makes it sound like they don't deserve full and happy lives simply because they're small dogs.

I dont really need to say that I didnt mean it that way do I . Management of Toy dogs is simply not as difficult as larger more energetic dogs etc .

Edited June 9, 2016 by Steve

[Katdogs]

Sickening.

Why does the name Kate Hallam in the OP ring a bell? Was she ever a DOLer?

[Steve]

Not much good for the dog if they're supposedly "sound" of body but not of mind. Not that many of them seem in good health and the long haired ones where you need to factor in grooming. Those dogs are matted Have they ever been brushed in their life? 4 dead dogs on site?!

I don't understand how Dogs Vic or the Chi club were supposedly unaware of all this. This lady has been watched since 2010. I am also mad that it took years for the raid to happen in the first place and that the council she is registered with did nothing after all the complaints. How many times do all these clubs, councils and people need to fail these dogs? How many times does the RSPCA need to visit a breeder before Dogs Vic and Breed club's kick them off the list?

This is horrible for all these dogs and all those poor dogs who have come out of it with such a shitty start to life.

I hope soon those who can will be set up with new families who can give them the time and patience they need to undo all this person's damage to them. Better lives ahead for them i hope.

Here's a new article popping up,article link

RSPCA Victoria chief executive Liz Walker says one of the breeders was known to the animal welfare group for 16 years.

"We got a tip-off in 2010, we went in 2011 and at that point in time we had 33 animals surrendered to us," Dr Walker told 3AW on Thursday.

Legislation in place then meant charges couldn't be laid, but changes to the code of practice for breeding businesses in 2012 means the owner can now be prosecuted for animal cruelty, the RSPCA chief said.

"We are confident that we will have charges laid - absolutely."

Owners can be jailed for two years and fined almost $75,000 but the RSPCA is more realistically hoping for banning orders prohibiting domestic animal ownership.

Dr Walker on Thursday revealed the current investigation had been running since late 2015.

I hope this person gets all of the bolded. She deserves to be fined and doesn't deserve any future animals

Waiting for the full extent of this animal cruelty and irresponsibility to come out, but it will just make me more mad.

If that latest article is true and 33 dogs were surrendered in 2011 and laws have been in place since only 12 months after that etc that raises a whole heap of other questions

Perhaps the dogs were surrendered back then due to the breeder having more than she had a permit for

Its also questionable as to how ethical it is for the RSPCA to give out this kind of information and make statements of this kind when its a case in progress.

[mita]

[

Steve, I respectfully disagree. Small toy breeds need socialization as much as any size of dog. There's strong evidence that puppies that are bred & raised in their early weeks to be well socialized with humans, develop neural pathways that predispose them to living with humans without marked timidity or aggression. The evidence also shows that the mother dog must also be well socialized. So it's not a case of only making a special effort for puppies. Again, evidence has shown socialization is best achieved when the breeding establishment most resembles a 'homely', ie. home-like setting.

If someone thought he/she could breed/raise/socialize tibbies (or any other toy breed) in a cohort of 120, I'd have some strong home truths to tell them.

Yes of course they need socialisation etc but a dozen chi's running around a lounge room is a lot easier than a dozen larger breeds in a back yard

The case being discussed involves 10 dozen.

Looks like I will have some strong words for the person....a tibbie breeder I trust, just told me that tibetan spaniels are in this bunch of 120.

Edited June 9, 2016 by mita

[Sheridan]

Im confused. How long ago did the RSPCA know about this?

[silentchild]

Just saw this posted on facebook:

"Puppy farm seizure of Chihuahuas. A great deal of misinformation regarding the Chihuaha Club of Victoria is floating around in the newspapers and tv news bulletins. The Secretary of the Chihuahua Club Victora is MRS CATHY STIRLING and she has been doing a stirling job since 2010. The President of our club is MRS KAREN MCCABE."

Yet more misinformation in the media, so many people vilifying purebred breeders on social media.

[Pjrt]

In my humble opinion to even come close to properly caring for and providing adequately enriched lives and exercise for somewhere around 120 dogs, you need an army of reliable family or volunteers, or paid staff.

Even in situations where commercial numbers are housed in clinical conditions, adequate enrichment and exercise is still a contentious issue for me.

They are only toy breeds so not so difficult if its a full time job. Many Chi breeders have high numbers.

Yuck. Sorry. Makes it sound like they don't deserve full and happy lives simply because they're small dogs.

yes. Im truly lost for words.

Chihuahuas are my heart breed. I've owned 3 little darlings and they, like all dogs, deserve full and happy lives. I get that larger more active breeds may need more space and stimulation, but seriously, 120 of any breed need more than 1 full time person caring for them to get even close to it.

I have worked at a couple of kennels, one an exclusive private show/breeding kennel of about 20 to 30 dogs owned by a well know person, now deceased, whose name is all over the dog world in SA. Another top shelf private breeder/exhibitor with 50ish large and giant dogs as well as boarding for 50+ pets. Well run well staffed facilities but still I am torn about the quality of life even these quite indulged animals received. And I myself have owned/managed up to 30 dogs on my own property. I know how bloody hard it is. People who visited my place, some who are members here, will attest to the facilities and standards and efforts to enrich the dogs. several were my own dogs, and up to 20 rescue dogs rotating through. One of the biggest drivers of my choice to get out of the rescue was the realisation that i thought even the rescue dogs deserved better, and believe me, they were some pretty fortunate dogs to have ended up with me.

I know only too well what goes into keeping large numbers of dogs and puppies and doing it well.

[Pjrt]

and lets not forget the OP said four dead dogs were removed from the property. yeah we can sit here and speculate but im seriously questioning what possible plausible reason anyone can have to have four dead dogs found and removed from their property.

And Ive actually been present at the emergency clearing of a breeders property where several dead dogs were found, and a Doler at that! A couple of other members here were present that day and I doubt any of us will ever forget it, nor dealing with the very very traumatised damaged dogs that made it out alive.

Edited June 9, 2016 by blinkblink

[Steve]

In my humble opinion to even come close to properly caring for and providing adequately enriched lives and exercise for somewhere around 120 dogs, you need an army of reliable family or volunteers, or paid staff.

Even in situations where commercial numbers are housed in clinical conditions, adequate enrichment and exercise is still a contentious issue for me.

They are only toy breeds so not so difficult if its a full time job. Many Chi breeders have high numbers.

Yuck. Sorry. Makes it sound like they don't deserve full and happy lives simply because they're small dogs.

yes. Im truly lost for words.

Chihuahuas are my heart breed. I've owned 3 little darlings and they, like all dogs, deserve full and happy lives. I get that larger more active breeds may need more space and stimulation, but seriously, 120 of any breed need more than 1 full time person caring for them to get even close to it.

I have worked at a couple of kennels, one an exclusive private show/breeding kennel of about 20 to 30 dogs owned by a well know person, now deceased, whose name is all over the dog world in SA. Another top shelf private breeder/exhibitor with 50ish large and giant dogs as well as boarding for 50+ pets. Well run well staffed facilities but still I am torn about the quality of life even these quite indulged animals received. And I myself have owned/managed up to 30 dogs on my own property. I know how bloody hard it is. People who visited my place, some who are members here, will attest to the facilities and standards and efforts to enrich the dogs. several were my own dogs, and up to 20 rescue dogs rotating through. One of the biggest drivers of my choice to get out of the rescue was the realisation that i thought even the rescue dogs deserved better, and believe me, they were some pretty fortunate dogs to have ended up with me.

I know only too well what goes into keeping large numbers of dogs and puppies and doing it well.

Do we know there was only one person caring for them? Unlikely.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Steve

[Steve]

and lets not forget the OP said four dead dogs were removed from the property. yeah we can sit here and speculate but im seriously questioning what possible plausible reason anyone can have to have four dead dogs found and removed from their property.

And Ive actually been present at the emergency clearing of a breeders property where several dead dogs were found, and a Doler at that! A couple of other members here were present that day and I doubt any of us will ever forget it, nor dealing with the very very traumatised damaged dogs that made it out alive.

I have also been involved in a case with a doler and dead dogs but in that situation the dogs had been locked in a bedroom and left to die and the bodies never removed to a point where the body juices had dripped through the floor BUT Having dead dogs on a property doesn't automatically mean that there is something terrible happening. Depends on how they died ,their age and what is normally done with animals that have died.

[Steve]

Just saw this posted on facebook:

"Puppy farm seizure of Chihuahuas. A great deal of misinformation regarding the Chihuaha Club of Victoria is floating around in the newspapers and tv news bulletins. The Secretary of the Chihuahua Club Victora is MRS CATHY STIRLING and she has been doing a stirling job since 2010. The President of our club is MRS KAREN MCCABE."

Yet more misinformation in the media, so many people vilifying purebred breeders on social media.

well they did forget to mention that the breeder who has been raided is the puppy enquiries officer and still an official at the club

[Pjrt]

Well, there obviously weren't enough people caring for them!

I can't believe anyone aligned with good practice in dog breeding, regardless of registry or even absence of registry , can speak words even approximating some sort of defence of this situation. Or try to come up with a legitimate reason why multiple dead dogs are on a private property.

I get that there may be details not disclosed, I get that details may be enriched by the media and AR groups and general internet hysteria etc.......

But here we are a bunch of people who I'd hope would try to set the bar as high as possible, and we have people speaking in defence of breeders operating at what any idiot can see is bare minimum, probably way below minimum standards.

Are these seriously the sort of standards you'd defend amongst members of mdba?

[Steve]

Well, there obviously weren't enough people caring for them!

I can't believe anyone aligned with good practice in dog breeding, regardless of registry or even absence of registry , can speak words even approximating some sort of defence of this situation. Or try to come up with a legitimate reason why multiple dead dogs are on a private property.

I get that there may be details not disclosed, I get that details may be enriched by the media and AR groups and general internet hysteria etc.......

But here we are a bunch of people who I'd hope would try to set the bar as high as possible, and we have people speaking in defence of breeders operating at what any idiot can see is bare minimum, probably way below minimum standards.

Are these seriously the sort of standards you'd defend amongst members of mdba?

Of course not and its not some sort of defence its caution and a desire to look at the facts not the assumptions or the bits that get included in such cases that are beaten up. I cant just hear this much and make final judgement .Ive enough experience with media and AR propaganda to hold my judgement until its all out and Im trying to sort out what is fact and assumption.

if you want to know what I really think it's unlikely that you will get that on this forum.

The Victorian State government have been shouting the praises of Vicdogs members and actively recruit memberships for them. There are MANY people who are members for no other reason but for the exemptions and aura of respectability it affords them and this was a disaster waiting to happen. The culture that automatically accepts someone is doing the right thing because they show their dogs and turns a blind eye to innumerable acts of cruelty etc needs a kick in the pants but there are some great breeders who will get bad vibes not just because of a couple of raids but because Vicdogs has no bloody idea of how to handle the bad PR or what should be done when this sort of thing happens.

This is about a much bigger problem than a couple of registered breeders being put under the spotlight. The focus on bad registered breeders will escalate over the next couple of months because of what is going on behind the scenes. Ill still wait until we see the real facts and hear the true story.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Just saw this posted on facebook:

"Puppy farm seizure of Chihuahuas. A great deal of misinformation regarding the Chihuaha Club of Victoria is floating around in the newspapers and tv news bulletins. The Secretary of the Chihuahua Club Victora is MRS CATHY STIRLING and she has been doing a stirling job since 2010. The President of our club is MRS KAREN MCCABE."

Yet more misinformation in the media, so many people vilifying purebred breeders on social media.

When I was googling yesterday, the chi club page I landed on (it was a contacts list?) did say Heather was the Secretary (and I remember feeling angry that her name was still on it/I couldn't see anything addressing the issue). Could be when people googled the name they also found that (presumably old/not updated then) page? When did Heather stop being the Secretary? Was it when the 2010 information came out? If Chi club enlightens that they did boot her out because of that, it would be awesome. If she had stepped down or switched out for another reason...

I'm not sure how breed clubs breeders work, is Heather still a member? Are they (the club) only responding because the media has exploded? If they were proactive and she's not actually a member that's awesome, but if they're just being reactive and only dealing with it because the media is horrified...:/ Well.

When the puppy farm is a registered breeder/shower etc. and of this scale, unfortunately those she works with and share the community are going to be tarred with the same brush.

I reckon the best thing the real responsible breeders can do right now (from my upset POV, so what would make me feel better personally about breeders involved) is a) condemn the actions of Heather, b) acknowledge that somewhere something went wrong to let this go on so long in their own registrees/councils/clubs/whatever else Heather is a member of c) let people know how they can spot bad breeders who tick the "responsible" boxes and report bad ones*. Certainly not anything that smacks the side of blame shifting/distancing/it's a conspiracy against breeders (hyperbole example)

Hoping my meaning makes sense.

*in an ideal world this would work, but considering the amount of complaints about Heather I can see why people went to the liberation front to get something done.

[Steve]

Just saw this posted on facebook:

"Puppy farm seizure of Chihuahuas. A great deal of misinformation regarding the Chihuaha Club of Victoria is floating around in the newspapers and tv news bulletins. The Secretary of the Chihuahua Club Victora is MRS CATHY STIRLING and she has been doing a stirling job since 2010. The President of our club is MRS KAREN MCCABE."

Yet more misinformation in the media, so many people vilifying purebred breeders on social media.

When I was googling yesterday, the chi club page I landed on (it was a contacts list?) did say Heather was the Secretary (and I remember feeling angry that her name was still on it/I couldn't see anything addressing the issue). Could be when people googled the name they also found that (presumably old/not updated then) page? When did Heather stop being the Secretary? Was it when the 2010 information came out? If Chi club enlightens that they did boot her out because of that, it would be awesome. If she had stepped down or switched out for another reason...

I'm not sure how breed clubs breeders work, is Heather still a member? Are they (the club) only responding because the media has exploded? If they were proactive and she's not actually a member that's awesome, but if they're just being reactive and only dealing with it because the media is horrified...:/ Well.

When the puppy farm is a registered breeder/shower etc. and of this scale, unfortunately those she works with and share the community are going to be tarred with the same brush.

I reckon the best thing the real responsible breeders can do right now (from my upset POV, so what would make me feel better personally about breeders involved) is a) condemn the actions of Heather, b) acknowledge that somewhere something went wrong to let this go on so long in their own registrees/councils/clubs/whatever else Heather is a member of c) let people know how they can spot bad breeders who tick the "responsible" boxes and report bad ones*. Certainly not anything that smacks the side of blame shifting/distancing/it's a conspiracy against breeders (hyperbole example)

Hoping my meaning makes sense.

*in an ideal world this would work, but considering the amount of complaints about Heather I can see why people went to the liberation front to get something done.

she was the secretary back when the first complaint was made in 2010 and she is still listed there as a puppy enquiry officer

Im all for registered breeders and everyone condemning those who do what she is accused of but best to wait until more reliable info is made available in my opinion.

[silentchild]

I have no idea what her role is at the club, on the Chihuahua Facebook page they said in a comment to someone that she had been booted out of the club in 2010....whether true or not who knows.