Guest LittlePixie Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I ran a quick search on this and came up with two or three posts... I just want to confirm. I read (somewhere) and have believed for a while that you should not feed dogs meat without bone because it stuffs up the calcium/phosphorous ratio. So in my dogs' BARF diet, all the meat they get is on the bone... chicken/turkey wings and necks, lamb/beef brisket etc, and soon chicken carcasses. I don't need to feed them mince as well, do I? Particularly for Brody (10 month old small breed) it would be a really bad idea, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Too much meat - or meat alone does provide too much p, and the calcium can be leached from the dog's bones to compensate However, if you wish to feed mince, simply continue to give the dog bones, as well as whatever else he gets, to provide him with c. I feed chicken mince which is the whole carcass minced, bones and all, and the dogs get beef bones a couple of times a week as well. If they didn't get the beef bones, they would still get enough c from the mince. I add veg. fruit, offal, so the c is not too high, as I like them to have bones - for their teeth, and recreational chewing. (Saves them chewing each others ears!!) If the mince was mince only (without the bones) I would give bones more often, or supplement with Sandoz or something similar. So, if you are going to feed mince, make sure the dogs still get bones My theory is that cavaliers have shocking teeth, (probably hereditary) and the more bones you can get them to gnaw, the more likihood of them actually having some teeth after 8 years of age! (Jed dons flame suit and runs for hills, chased by irate cavalier fanciers!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LittlePixie Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 As well as the RMBs, they get mushed up vegetables, a little bit of fruit, whole eggs including the shell, sardines in oil, probiotics and apple cider vinegar. So essentially.... I COULD feed mince if the mood struck me (and I was still giving bones at other times), but it's not necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumOf2LabBoys Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 OK scuze my blondeness....it's taken me a few months to work up to asking this question...but what is offal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 what is offal?? Organs. Doesnt sound like awful for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 OKscuze my blondeness....it's taken me a few months to work up to asking this question...but what is offal?? Hearts, liver, kidneys, lungs etc. = offal Little Pixie, if you follow the Billinghurst version of a BARF diet, you can safely combine both the raw meaty bones - eg chicken - wings, necks carcass or pork hocks or lamb shanks etc but also feed some meat without bone such as minced beef. Billinghurst would suggest this included the mushed up offal, veggies and fruit etc and would make up only about 20% of the total diet. Many people have fed many variations of this and you will find some never feed mince without bone. My personal experience is that feeding mince or chunks of muscle meat a few time a week helps the dogs to be able to pass their stools with a little less straining. If you feed your dog twice a day, there is no reason why one meal cannot be muscle meat and one RMB as long as the balance is maintained. Personally I only fed one meal a day as I find it too easy to overfeed when feeding twice a day. No matter how many people you ask about this each will have their own opinion but at the end of the day it really does not matter how you feed exactly as long as it is right for your dog and you will know that by his general health. Cheers Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 LP, you are a genius... I have been researching Ollies condition (Oxalate stones) and if you what you say is correct about the lack of bones in a diet, then this is why he suffers from the stones... He has always been a fussy dog and refused bones. So has never really had them. His diet has always been human grade meat (chicken, turkey, roo and beef) with veges (usually a 50/50mix) all stewed up... I am going to ask the vet about this. All he made need to go back to real food instead of the Hills Science diet is to eat bones included in his meal... (He hates it and only eats when he is absolutely starving) I have been reading about this stuff for months now and never put to two and two together (the need for bones and not just meat)... Thanks Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAL Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 The only way I can get Brodie to eat the vegetable mush is mixed in with a tablespoon of mince. I don't feed human grade because it has too many preservatives. I get pet grade beef and roo mix, and freeze it in snaplock bags for easy freezing and thawing. She gets plenty of chicken carcasses - I like the ones at Lennards at Rhodes because they leave a lot of the innards in there and a little meat on the bone, a lean bone every day and a dinosaur bone sawn down the radial axis once a week (actually one half every week). Most of her meat comes in the form of lamb shanks, ox tails and lamb necks, and offal once a week. She went in for her 12 month booster on the weekend and the vet commented that she was the healthiest dog he had seen in a long time, in top condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Feeding a diet totally of muscle meat without any source of calcium - such as bones - is the problem. Feeding the occasional meal of just meat however, is no problem. You need to look at the balance over time, not just in a single meal. My dogs will occasionally get a meal with no bones - usually once a week or so and occasionally twice. They do however, eat meaty bones on other days. (It is generally felt BTW, that chicken carcasses, necks and wings do not provide enough muscle meat on their own. It would be good therefore to provide additional muscle meat by providing other types of bones which have more meat on them and/or providing additional muscle meat off the bone eg meat chunks or mince) In regards to Oxylate stones/crystals, Lew has a good article on this on her B-Naturals webpage: http://b-naturals.com/Dec2004.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 espinay2, thankyou so much for that link... Now all I have to do is work out how to get the lad to eat bones... Cheers Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 If you can find a butcher that does pet mince with bones in it or minced chicken carcasses etc then that should solve your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Now all I have to do is work out how to get the lad to eat bones... I think you will need to check this. In the article, although it says not to starve calcium, it does say that calcium citrate should be fed as the only form of calcium for this particular condition. If you need clarifying, perhaps you could contact the author and see what she says? If you can provide bones, you may want to start by mixing chicken pet mince in with other muscle meat. This should be easy to get from a lot of chicken shops/pet food places. Leonards even sells it here although you need to ask as they often dont advertise they have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffiend42 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 hey LP I read your post as "feeding mice without bone" Thought it was a little odd coming from you, and my next thought was geez you'd have to have a small filleting knife ahem...carry on, don't mind me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopenfox Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Jed....My Cavaliar is 11 1/2 and still has beautiful teeth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) Has he/she always had bones to gnaw as part of the diet? I am very interested in cavaliers teeth!! Cal - I don't think mine would eat the vegs unless they were mixed with the meat. Everything - mince, vege, fruit, eggs, sardines, oil, supplements - and any leftovers - jatz and dip are quite popular - all get chucked in together and mixed up.... yuuuummmyy!! Some of the rescues/visitors wont eat them at all, so I begin with a tiny amount in the mince, and gradually increase until they are getting the same as the others. Everyone's favourites are carrots, bananas, apples and pears. I think!! Edited August 9, 2005 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninaandted Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 on the days when we are feeding chicken wings and/or necks I don't worry so much about additional meat as such, but the quality of the "meaty" bones we can access is pretty poor where we are (i.e. there's not alot of meat on 'em) so I supplement with roo meat or "pet mince" on those days. I wouldn't give just mince day in and day out though. you can get some "pet mince" mixes that have ground up bone in them as someone above has pointed out. The "Uncle Toms" commercial brand definitely has ground bone included in the mix. (not that I've bought any but I've had a long chat with the rep). But in terms of healthy teeth, this doesn't substitute for the action of chewing on the bones, just gets the calcium in. Staffyluv - have you tried giving chicken necks? If your dog refuses those that would have to be a record!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I have never truseted chicken carcasses or pet mince with bones in it. I mean we tell people not to feed small splintery bones and then we give the dog mince with shredded bone?! Maybe its my distrust in people, I have bought pet mince in the past with some serious looking splinters in it. I go to the butcher, get some human quality stewing steak/osso bucco and chop that up. Preservative free too and I know whats in it. Found a great bulk butcher in Nth Laverton (Melb people PM me if you're interested in butcher/poultry) and I just hacked up a 2.2kg slab of yearling. Cost me $14 for it and should last her 5-6 days after I mix it with rice+veges and give her bones. I dont like them adding offal to mince either because it goes off VERY quickly and spoils meat. She gets it on the day, chopped up and added in (chicken giblets and livers) I add a Canine nutritional powder to the mix: yeast, kelp, lecithin, calcium carbonate, garlic powder, parsley, sodium ascorbate or when I got desperate used the repti-cal hehe One butcher asked me what I was going to cook with 2kg of steak, and when I told him it was for the dog he nearly keeled over! Is it just me or am I being an overly doting mummy? I just cant find good quality pet mince, I wont buy pre-packeaged which has preservatives and I'd rather get human grade and chop it up so I know what additives are put into the mix. here lives a pampered pooch hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlyking Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Cost me $14 for it and should last her 5-6 days after I mix it with rice+veges and give her bones. That would last me one day - so I'll stick to the chicken wings, necks and carcasses I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Staffyluv - have you tried giving chicken necks? If your dog refuses those that would have to be a record!! He will not eat any form of meat, on or off the bone, raw... When it is offered (and this was on a regular basis - before the Hills Science) he would turn away from it. Even a small sniff seemed to repulse him... I even tried cooking his meat so that it was just seared and red in the middle to try to get him used to the raw meat, but he would not even it that... He loves roo but would not eat that raw either... So cooked meat it was. And I have seen the consequences of a dog that has eaten a cooked bone, so I never gave him cooked bones, hence he always had muscle meat. He used to eat a lot of veges and fruit and chew on dentabones/sticks/greenies. And the occasional smoked roo tail... But now it is just Hills Science Diet UD... Nothing else - no treats... I am still researching as I think that there has to be a better way than just commercial dog food - no matter how good they say it is... Cheers Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mana Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 (It is generally felt BTW, that chicken carcasses, necks and wings do not provide enough muscle meat on their own. It would be good therefore to provide additional muscle meat by providing other types of bones which have more meat on them and/or providing additional muscle meat off the bone eg meat chunks or mince) How much more meat on the bone should they get? I'd been using Billinghurts' comment that as a bottom line pups can do well on chicken wings and random bits & pieces as a sort of safety net - for their RMB / meat quota my pups and adult are getting chicken wings, necks, a little bit of offal and whatever is available or on special to make up the remainder - so this week it's been flaps of pork ribs, chicken carcasses and some huge marrow bones and last night they had 2 lambs' hearts each - but that's a first. (This is in addition to their other stuff - scraps, eggs, tinned fish, yogurt, and a pulp of veges, fruit, kelp powder, oils etc). Should I be adding some mince or other meat too? And another question - do those of you who use it have a cheaper way of buying codliver and flaxseed oil and brewer's yeast and rescue remedy than from the health food shop? I bought my first bottles/packets last week and it added up to $70 and I'll get through the oils in a few weeks if I dose them at the level Billinghurst says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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