Does Breed Determine The Obedience Level?

[fifi trixibell]

Just curious.

We have a cav and a boston, as some of you know, and our boston Lily seems to have more obedience in some areas than the cav, Lulu. In particular in the recall.

I understand that cav's are not so inclined to 'definate' obedience in the sense of recall, etc and they have poor road sense. I have noticed this when just being with them and calling in a distracting environment. Lily is more likely to stay close and come back once called, however Lulu has a more inquisitive nose and does her own thing.

She will come back eventually, but is more likely to run to her hearts content to whatever it is that has attracted her. Lily however seems happier to stay around us.

Should I just persevere or is it the breed and therefore not likely to happen as I want?

Thoughts?

Ange

[Staranais]

I think breed does have some input into a dog's quickness of learning and willingness to work. Dogs that have been bred to work in close association with humans (think shepherds, shelties, border collies) are always going to have an edge over dogs who were bred to work independently.

I don't know if that has any bearing on your situation, and your two breeds, though.

[ninaandted]

I've also been curious about this too. I was once told by a friend who had gone to a dog training lecture (and I don't know if it's true but it's an interesting idea) that different breeds may have been bred for different purposes and this affected the way they related to "obedience" and/or their humans in some respects.

My friend kind of explained it like this - terriers for example were bred (according to this lecturer) to think a little bit more independently when following prey and not rely on specific instruction. Gun dogs to stick close and then go off and work alone to retrieve and then return to the human and herding dogs would work much more closely with their human and look for intstruction, rather than making too many assessments of their own.

Like I said, I don't know if it's true but it's an interesting idea.

[Joey Rocks My World]

hi

i have done obedience trialing with two dogs, one a german shepherdx blue heeler, and jenna, a red heeler x kelpie.

The german shepherd cross, was very sluggish and tough to teach, but very consistant..and got his cd...but it was hard work with him.

Jenna got her cd as well, she was very quick learner, consistant, eager to please, alert......altho too alert at times LOL

both those dogs have working dogs in their makeup, so for them some of the tasks came natural :D

As for joey my cav, i haven't done much yet, he does learn quickly and does l isten, but he does get distracted a lot, as you have seen in them.

I have example of cavs that have been successful in obedience and agilty, so they have got the potential iin both areas!!!theycan and do make it

So altho particular breeds might excel, cause its part of their trait, other breeds will have it in them to, to be winners and just as good

PRobably hasn't asnswered your question LOL, but just a insight into what i've seen and experinced in my time

JUST a funny example ..

yesterday, i was doING a breif training session with joey, a sit and stay.... and jenna wanted to be in the act, so i let her participate....anyway ..joey did give up and wandered over to me...i got Distracted with joey and went to do something, and hubby who had been watching..said to me., hey you forgot bout jenna, she's still sitting and waiting for a command from you, to be able to leave her sit stay LOL my poor old loyal jenna!!

Anyway i will let you know how i do with joey, not that i'm applying myself seriously just yet.

[helen]

I think breed does have some bearing but training and maturity are very important. You may need to use different methods for some of the 'harder to train' breeds and in doing so can get excellent results. There is a Samoyed doing obedience trials at the moment, the breed does not have a good reputation but this dog's heeling is excellent, one of the best around.

Edited October 11, 2005 by helen

[Joey Rocks My World]

i just wanted to add one more thing, while im thinking on the subject still.

altho jenna was very responsive and easy to train, too easy!, i found it quite disapointing compared to wiinning with the first dog, Sabre ....

I think for me, the outcome wasn't soo much the wiinning and high scores, as to the challenge of training and learning and acheiving results together...so i felt i achieved more with Sabre in a sense. i had to put soo much more effort into him and it just made me feel all the hard work was a successful challenge, just in itself...i got a higher feeling of satisfaction with the harder to train dog, than i did with Jenna, does that make sense??? :D

I actually was more proud, and felt more worthy of Sabre's cd than i i was with Jenna's

Edited October 11, 2005 by my sweet jenna

[poodlefan]

Breed may affect 'trainability' - the natural desire to please, the willingness to accept direction that comes with some dogs who have been selectively breed for it and boredom thresholds. Some dogs can be repeatedly asked to do the same exercises and will remain keen, others switch off. Its no great surprise that many obedience trialling dogs come from the gundog and working groups who have been selectively bred for centuries to accept guidance and direction from their handlers.

That said, with more positive motivational techniques available these days, with the right trainer, almost any breed is capable of both general obedience and competion obedience work. What you have to start with is an understanding of your breed, what it was bred to do and then for your individual dogs, what motivates it - what its drives are.

It quietly amuses me to see some newbie terrier owners' frustration when their dogs show more interest in their surroundings than their handlers. Some of these people have bought the dog based on its size and appearance and know little about their temperament. I ask them to contemplate what their dogs were bred to do and how much direction from handlers they needed to do it. A dog bred to hunt vermin (often below ground) needs a strong, independent mind to do its job. The challenge for the handler is to focus that mind on them - and it can be done. There is a very talented trainer at our club who has put a UD title on not one, but two Parson Jack Russells. Frankly, I have a lot more respect for her training ability than some more high profile obedience competitors who stick to the 'traditional' breeds.

CKCS's are highly trainable dogs. I"d put them top of the Toy Breeds. If your Cav is ignoring you, I suspect the issues are more about leadership than her trainability. Why should she come back straight away if you don't insist on it. Cavs compete at the top levels of obedience and agility! I suspect Lulu is channelling her gundog ancestory and doing a bit of hunting.

You might find this Suzanne Clothier article on 'hard to train' breeds interesting:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/difficult.html

I think the book "So Your Dog's Not Lassie" is also a great read for owners of "challenging" breeds. :D

Edited October 11, 2005 by poodlefan

[Greytmate]

I agree with Amhailte, and what Ninaandted's friend was told at the lecture. However individual dogs vary somewhat, and different lines within breeds vary too.

It's not just what is going on within a dog's mind though, the physical characteristics of a breed do play a part.

You could expect a dog with big floppy ears to be totally absorbed in following a scent. When the nose is on the ground, the ears act to 'scoop' the scents towards the nose, giving a more intense experience for the dog.

I am not surprised that Lulu the cav likes to follow her nose. In your obedience training, your task is to provide a greater motivation for your dog than the reward she gets from sniffing.

I don't know a lot about Bostons, but I would guess that the reward she would get in running towards or staying close to a person who will interact with her may be motivation enough. Terriers love a game.

Should you persevere?

Yes. All dogs can be trained, you just have to learn what motivates your dog, and knowing your breeds' traits will help you discover the best motivational tools to use. Some breeds and individual dogs are more challenging than others.

It is quite acceptable to have different expectations for different breeds though. If your goal is to have an obedience champion by two years of age, you might select certain breeds that will increase your chance of acheiving this.

If your expectation is just to have a dog that will respect you and generally do as it is told, then you can have that with any breed.

[Em & Taco]

hI!

I don't know how much traing our boys had before we got them but they are generally good dogs and respect the house and there toys.

I have found with our two boys that they are both very trainable and obdient when they want to be. Sometimes you can call them and they will come straight away and other times selective hearing comes in.

Buckley is for sure the more obdient dog as he is very focused on us whereas Taco I don't think had much training at all before we got him. He will pick things up though quickly but has to be the mood to do it. We have taught him to sit, lay down, roll over, shake etc but if he wanders off the front porch good luck trying to get him to come back to your first go!

Buckley is very clever when there are balls or games involved and his recall is quite good in the sense you only need to call him once and he will stop what he is doing and come to you.

Buckley has picked up Flyball very fast and is really good at it, Taco doesn't want to have a bar of it and prefers to kick all four feet arounf and whinge while we try and train Buckley. We tried to include Taco but he is just not in to it.

Em

[Melbarose]

I'm so confused.

I currently train 4 dogs and in total have trained 5. My lab/rotty is my good boy in the sense that he does as he is told, never questions and is eager to learn. But in terms of general behavior he is over the top and tends to break jumps, weavers, almost our instructors nose and has dislocated his jaw because he is so enthusiastic.

My Smithfield X is very obedient up to a point, if she doesn't want to do it she can simply switch off. If she is in trouble or I want her to go to the house she will go,but very slowly and stops to check that I actually know what I am talking about. Very annoying!

My Mini Schnauzer, a breed that is supposed to be super intelligent, likes to train at home but can't get it together out in the big wide world.

And lastly my Basset is easily the best dog I've trained. She is nearly two and loves to work, she's started Novice Encouragement and aside from the occasional smell that takes her attention away, she will eagerly do my bidding.

So I have a Labx that lives up to his breeds reputaion, a working dog x that doesn't, a schnauzer that doesn't and a Basset that goes against the general opinion of them being obstinate, single minded, easily distracted and hard to train!

See why I'm so confused? But we should all keep plugging away. I know of beagles that have done exceptionally well in the obedience ring, also a boxer and a malamute. All of these are dogs that most would say, forget it! But at the end of the day our dogs are only as good as the work we put into them and the most important thing to remember is that if you are having fun and your dog is having fun then you've already won!

[fifi trixibell]

Thanks guys.

It is just so obvious when they are together that they have different levels of training.

For example, Lily will sit the minute you stop walking with her on the lead. Lulu however, will keep looking forward and take a few more seconds before looking back at me and then sitting upon command. They have been trained in the same manner - so I think perhaps I do need to find that 'niche' that rewards and encourages Lulu to see me as the leader.

Lily definately finds reward in 'being' with you - she is there to please.

I think perhaps I need to be a little more regimented with their training and do it more often in smaller bursts. They are still both quite young (8 months).

mmmm, lots to think about

Ange

[poodlefan]

My Mini Schnauzer, a breed that is supposed to be super intelligent, likes to train at home but can't get it together out in the big wide world.

Don't confuse intelligence with responsiveness to one's handler Melabrose. Its those pesky smart dogs that like to give us a run for our money - so many other things they can do... and one's handler still be there when one decides its time to respond to them.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Training is temperament specific, not breed specific. You will find many varyations in temperament within just one breed, so suggesting that there is a good method to train a certian breed is incorrect, the temperament needs to be assessed first & then a method chosen.

A dog with a higher level of drive (positive drive), will be able to complete a greater number of tasks with more enthusiasm than a lower drive dog.

For those who have commented on cross breeds, it's a flawed exp[eriment as you cant exactly say which breed was the genetic influencer.

Yes all dogs can be trained, but you need to be aware of what the term "trained" means.

You will not get a Saint Bernard to win a Sch title, physically & mentally the dog doesnt have what it takes.

[Sayreovi]

I would say no, i have 2 dogs both the same breed, that are known to be extremely intelligent/trainable. One, Darcy, has the best temprement to want to please and when i start training him fully has the potential to go very far. My other boy, Nova, while being smart is harder to train, i personally find him 'smarter' then the other boy but doesnt have the wanting to please temprement, there MUST be something in it for him to want to do it and that something better be really good. Im making Nova sound like a hard dog to train, when really once i found out what he wants he was pretty easy the hardest part was finding that special something. So the breed doesnt really play much into it as much as the dogs individual personality does

However i would be able to train Nova much more easily doing agility and retrieving as he isnt that dependent and is willing to work at distances more while Darcy is more responsive to obedience as it has close contact with me

[speckymagee]

Hi,

On the subject of obedience.....

My two and a half year old Sheltie is still not under voice control and wont return to me at all time when off the lead (unless there is nothing to explore and unless I dont have a "surprise" up my sleeve).

That being said is it ever too late to train a dog? Or too late to go to Obedience Training? Or have I no chance now with this dog to get him to return to me at all times?

Edited October 12, 2005 by speckymagee

[Sayreovi]

Its never too late to train a dog, or join a club.

I have the same problem, i have a 3 year old dog that has gotten away with not coming when called so what i did is never put him in a situation where he has the opportunity to not come back, so he was basically on a long lead/line all the time.

Find something your dog really loves and use that for recalls and only recalls and everytime he comes to you reward him with that. Start off in your backyard until he is coming every time you call then move to a quiet area where he is on a lead and repeat. Just slowly build up the distractions and never put the dog in a situation where he has a choice to come or not.

That is my experience only and has worked well so far, i am able to let my dog off lead and he will return every time i call but only in that one area i am building up in other areas but it takes time and patience

[Lablover]

I think the working breeds who can focus, learn faster and can take owner "training" error mistakes with ease, just because of their genetic make up, whatever their requirement.

That being said, each dog in any breed is different.

I find personally the ideals of PERFECTION, is relevant.

[boxagirl]

I think different breeds/dogs can all be trained... just need to find a way of training them that suits them. Perservere

sorta off topic, some people see boxers as hypo/skittish (well bondi kinda is... ) but I have heard and come to the conclusion that it is because of where there eyes are positioned on there heads lol . Everyone is always commenting on how bondi is always looking around for things, but it is only more noticable because she actually has to turn her head to see them (unlike a collie for exaple, whose eyes are more on the sides) LOL sorry for the hijack, it just popped into my head

[Steve K9Pro]

K9 you cant train a dog in drive when it has no drive... no matter what method you use...

[mita]

I've noticed a difference between the 2 types of breeds we've had.

The working dog types were more likely to respond obediently because they seemed to want to 'please' their pack leader. Though a temperamental difference could show. Like, our Sheltie boy, Dan, was quick & enthusiastic to respond. Shelley, the girl, would obey...but she could stamp a touch of dominance in the response.

The Tibetan Spaniels are totally different as a breed....self-confident & committed to figuring out their own self-interest. Tibbies taken out for obedience training out in the park say, 'And the point of all this is....?'

I've found I train the Tibbies very differently. It's just necessary to link the fact that good things (in their estimation) will always happen when they do desired behaviours.

Then I've found that these dogs are the fastest learners I've come across. They remember the links, so I can't remember the last time I actually gave an order to one of our Tibbies....they figure it out from the context....& 'do' the behaviour that they know brings them the good things of life as a housedog & companion pet.

I actually like the Tibbie thinking...never slavish, always intelligent, & very clear about what's a good life for them. And being enormously responsive & affectionate when they decide you're OK.

There's individual differences...that learning can temper.

Like I was warned by her breeder, that our Gracie was the most strong-minded Tibbie....& the one most likely to get away from her.

Yes, Gracie is strong-minded....but with the training that good things come with desired behaviours, she doesn't get away from me. When she takes off for a little runaway when the bath comes out, I just crouch down with my arms out....& she makes the decision that if she comes to me something good happens, so she runs into my arms for a cuddle. I don't have to say a word.

Edited October 15, 2005 by mita