Training Discussion - Head Halters

[Steve K9Pro]

S:

Have found "reducing drive" to be useful at times as she's obviously chased quite a few birds in the past. But yesterday was able to walk past some with just pricked ears and she kept position - big improvement.

K9: which means you have raised her threshold to prey drive.

As some risks are there with these tools, I would prefer the martingale or prong.

There is a trainer that I spoke with at length on halters in the us, he uses a fibreglass rod with snap on it, hooked to halters & prong & leash attched too, he uses halter to control head movement etc...

he feels its great with no risk.

[Herr Rottweiler]

This has been quite a good post

K9 to add to your points about neck injury with the halti, a fellow who owned a large malamute was told by a training school to use a halti. He said he was happy with his correction but he was ganged up on and told he had to use one or lose his mebership. He decided that he would give it a go. 2 weeks later he fractured the vertibre in the dogs neck following the instructions of the girl who recommended it to him. The vet cleared him 6 months later to be able to train again. He came and did some private work with me and because of the injury I fitted his dog with a prong collar. The dog and owner are doing very well.

Some would say that the man didn't follow the instructors directions. I don't think this is the case as he was clearly intelligent and is an excellent hadler with the dog and did everthing i asked him to do, to the letter.

I have no issue with people using halti's, but they are right down on my list for preferred use. No disrespect intended as the following is my opinion, but I feel that trainers who can't effectively use or instruct the usage of a normal correction chains will dive on Halti's as it generally supresses the dogs reckless behaviour whilst the dog is wearing it.

The usual comment I get from customers who use halti's is, "he is so well behaved when I walk him on lead now". When I ask them what the dog is like offlead, "oh he's a ratbag".

Now in saying this, the argument could come back to the same thing with correction chains, prongs etc. however, I'm basing this on many years of experience, not on pride or opinion. I know that training properly with correction chains, prongs, matingales etc. the results will be better long term.

I'm not trying to discredit halti, gentle leader or the like, I do however get somewhat annoyed when people are constantly trying to discredit correction chains, prongs etc. I believe it reveals arrogance and ignorance in a trainer or an organisation when they carry on that only their method is the best for training dogs.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Herr Rottweiler

[herding_guy]

If it is as easy as some would have us believe to stop a dog from pulling then please tell everyone how it is done. Personally I found it bordering on the impossible when I first started off.

I feel the problem is partly, as someone previously mentioned, a leadership issue. I have taken thousands of dogs from owners and shown them how to stop a dog from pulling on the lead and demonstrated with their dog and had complet 100% complience from the dog in one session. Some get it and have success and some don't. 70% of the ones that don't have leadership issues or handler limitations the other 30% are just not serious. So for those maybe the head halter is a good idea.... but only if they dont teach the dog to pull on the head halter as well - then what?

The good thing about the head halter is that it changes the rules for the dog and allows time to pass for future retraining on the flat collar. Having said that I would like to add...I don't really see any other benefit but am definitely willing to observe someone more experienced with halters than myself and learn.

AS kelpie - i said before DOGS PULL ON THE LEAD BECAUSE HANDLERS LET THEM.

My method is - show the dog that lead pulling is of no value and or causes an adverse undesirable event to follow and not pulling is value. The value or undesireable event is dictated by the dog. Hope this helps.

[Guest Tess32]

I would guess that one of the main reasons dogs keep pulling is that people are randomly reinforcing pulling by being inconsistent and letting it happen every now and then. They let them pull when they are excited or are going to class etc and so the behaviour just strengthens and continues.

As for head halters, I doubt I would use one, but I don't know any facts or fallacies about them unfortunately

Going back to one thing someone said (forget who) - are they *really* constantly aversive? Some dogs would just find them neutral wouldn't they?

Nat

[Kelpie-i]

Tess32

would guess that one of the main reasons dogs keep pulling is that people are randomly reinforcing pulling by being inconsistent and letting it happen every now and then

Unfortunately, not "every now and again" but "always".

HG

The good thing about the head halter is that it changes the rules for the dog and allows time to pass for future retraining on the flat collar.

Yes, totally agree that this would be the only good thing about a head halter.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[Kavik]

I have not had a positive experience with head halters as Zoe really does not like them. She used to hide when I brought it out but she is better now, although she will still try to rub it off on walks. I will occasionally use one on her if I am in a situation that I am worried about her getting really aggro at other dogs in a small space where I can't get away, such as at the vet, but even then I often use a collar. I sometimes use one at agility as you are not allowed correction collars.

I think they are so popular beause it allows people to control large dogs in training, especially when clubs are not allowing the use of check or prong collars. Many clubs only allow flat collars, martingales or head collars. I only weigh 43 kilos, and if I had a young large strong dog that pulls and was a bit out of control and went to one of these clubs, you really have no choice but a head collar if a martingale does not cut it.

[Kelpie-i]

I think they are so popular beause it allows people to control large dogs in training, especially when clubs are not allowing the use of check or prong collars. Many clubs only allow flat collars, martingales or head collars. I only weigh 43 kilos, and if I had a young large strong dog that pulls and was a bit out of control and went to one of these clubs, you really have no choice but a head collar if a martingale does not cut it.

Kavik, isn't it sad that some clubs and/or trainers put the blinkers on to other training aids all in the name of Purely Positive. Infact, the head halter in an aversive tool......nothing positive about that.

I too way 43kg (or actually 45kg ) and own a large dog who had pulling issues. Many many moons ago, I tried a halter on him and he just sat and wouldn't move. When he did move, he spent the entire time rubbing his head on the concrete trying to take it off. Finally, he would run away whenever I took it out. I ended up taking him to training and was advised to use a prong collar. Best thing I could have done. He was happy to train, walk and just generally have it on.

Of course, prong collars are now illegal in Victoria and "Purely Positive" is the "In Buzz" word so I think the Head Halter people must be making a killing.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Kelpie-i

[Herr Rottweiler]

I think they are so popular beause it allows people to control large dogs in training, especially when clubs are not allowing the use of check or prong collars. Many clubs only allow flat collars, martingales or head collars.

yes, mad world!

[haven]

I would guess that one of the main reasons dogs keep pulling is that people are randomly reinforcing pulling by being inconsistent and letting it happen every now and then. They let them pull when they are excited or are going to class etc and so the behaviour just strengthens and continues.

Yes I definately agree here! Most of the time when people say they have tried this and that but it didn't work, it was not the method that was at fault, but the inconsistency of it's application.

I see it all the time at training, people training their dog not to pull during class but allowing thier dog to drag them to and from the car, thus the dog only applies not pulling to specific times and/or areas.

Also, as Tess said, people get complacent, tired or frustrated when their dogs are excited and give up, allow their dog to pull and thus reinforce a much more extreme version of the behaviour they are trying to diminish.

[Erny]

I too way 43kg (or actually 45kg  )

Deleted because I made a "politically incorrect" comment .... and I'm tired of getting flamed.

Edited November 7, 2005 by Erny

[Kelpie-i]

Deleted because I made a "politically incorrect" comment .... and I'm tired of getting flamed. 

Erny, I would have allowed you to pick on my spelling mistake!!!!

[Erny]

Erny, I would have allowed you to pick on my spelling mistake!!!!

You dag! ...

[Guest Tess32]

Unfortunately, not "every now and again" but "always".

Hmmm, I don't think so.

I'm talking about people who aren't 100% "I don't care" and are working towards loose leash but don't seem to be getting anywhere.

I think they are more common than people who let their dog steam roll ahead on walks. I rarely see anyone in my area with a completely out of control pulling dog!

What I DO see is people walking their dogs nicely up the street, and stopping when they pull etc and trying to be good but then the dog sees another dog or something else interesting, and they let them pull pull pull forward.

I've done it myself and I'm sure I know better!

Nat

[Kelpie-i]

Tess32 I don't think you understand what I am getting at....

What I DO see is people walking their dogs nicely up the street, and stopping when they pull etc and trying to be good but then the dog sees another dog or something else interesting, and they let them pull pull pull forward.

Your example above leads me into a good argument for my statement....

The same people who walk their dog nicely up the street are the same people who have always allowed their dog to pull when it saw another dog coming.

Whilst they may have succeeded in achieving loose lead walking when there have been no distractions around, they have failed to teach their dog that this same behaviour is required upon seeing another dog.

Consistency is the key to training a dog....its either "always" or "never"....no in betweens

This is the point I was trying to make.

[Cazza]

So what do you all think would be a good method for me to teach my dog how to walk on a loose lead, given he is already 10 months old and quite strong. Giving the lead a yank and an 'ah ah' when he walks too fast isn't working for me - I'm just getting a sore arm!

[Guest Tess32]

Tess32 I don't think you understand what I am getting at....

What I DO see is people walking their dogs nicely up the street, and stopping when they pull etc and trying to be good but then the dog sees another dog or something else interesting, and they let them pull pull pull forward.

Your example above leads me into a good argument for my statement....

The same people who walk their dog nicely up the street are the same people who have always allowed their dog to pull when it saw another dog coming.

Whilst they may have succeeded in achieving loose lead walking when there have been no distractions around, they have failed to teach their dog that this same behaviour is required upon seeing another dog.

Consistency is the key to training a dog....its either "always" or "never"....no in betweens

This is the point I was trying to make.

Um, wasn't that my point?

I don't call that "always" pulling because you look at the overall life of the dog and they only "occasionally" get to pull which ends up strengthening the behaviour they don't want (the pulling).

Anyway it's just semantics, we are saying the same thing.

Nat

[Herr Rottweiler]

So what do you all think would be a good method for me to teach my dog how to walk on a loose lead, given he is already 10 months old and quite strong. Giving the lead a yank and an 'ah ah' when he walks too fast isn't working for me - I'm just getting a sore arm!

This is not an insult to you, it's merely a point.

You haven't developed an effective technique yet. When you do, you're dog will know that pulling is no longer an option

[cavNrott]

Kelpie: you mentioned that you are reluctant to give your solution to the pulling problem due to people having dogs with varied behaviour problems and are not telling the full story. The full story is that the damn dog pulls.

We are not talking about varied and/or severe behaviour problems in this thread, just pulling. That's the behaviour we are trying to rectify, not jumping on guests or mouthing the kids or being aggressive to other dogs in the street, just pulling.

The experts keep telling us how easy/simple it is to fix but they won't tell us how to fix it. I am beginning to believe it's not quite so easy at all. It wasn't for me.

I am quite sure K9 knows exactly how it's done, and quickly. Testimony tells us so.

Herding Guy: If the simple reason for pulling is that the owner lets them then how is it that an owner has a number of dogs and only one pulls? Your logic would suggest that the owner doesn't allow all the dogs to pull, just one of them.

Another question here. You stated the head collar only works "if they don't teach the dog to pull on the head collar". Surely you are not suggesting that we do teach the dog to pull on the head collar only to have to correct it later.

BTW if you want to see a good trainer who does train with a Halti I can put you in touch with one. This trainer will train with whatever equipment he feels will do the job and that the owner is comfortable with. He is an excellent trainer.

The pulling has virtually ceased with my dog. Only very rarely will she try it on (she did once, a couple of weeks ago with a cat) but it was a nightmare trying to walk her a couple of years ago. There are people on this forum who I commiserate with because the pulling problem for a small person with a big dog is horrendous. I could not have overcome the problem without private training...I tried for months at an obedience club.

I had hoped that the people who tell us they have the experience and expertise would help those people out. We here consider it important to have well trained dogs or we wouldn't get so upset about the pulling problem. To claim that some people may get rough if advice is given....well the people who are rough with their dog are - and giving them proper advice may well solve their frustration. Those of us who do not treat our dogs unfairly are unlikely to start due to good advice given.

[cavNrott]

.

Edited May 7, 2009 by cavNrott

[Staff'n'Toller]

Anne- good post.

I find it interesting that we are in page 4 already, and the trainers who believe they don't need headcollars, and can teach dogs to stop pulling with a choker chain, still haven't said how they do it.

I actually do know how they do it...but was waiting for someone - anyone - to post about their expertise.

I also ponder alot about the successes at training vs. the successes in real life.

A training centre can be artificial to a dog, just like dogs who bite their owners trying to medicate them, wouldn't dare to it in a Vet clinic with a novel handler.

A Dog Trainer can be novel to a dog, the Dog Trainer (usually) has much better timing than the actual owner of said dog, they can usually read the dog better, and have more confidence in handling and also correcting the dogs' behaviour, but I just wonder how many owners actually 'get it' and are able to continue - and more importantly - get the same results outside of the training centre.

Edited because I wanted to find the original poster of this..

I've personally trained a large number of dogs not to pull on the lead and I never cease to be amazed by how quickly the dog catches on to the concept.

I've also personally trained a large number of dogs to not pull on the lead...but the question is Haven, can the owners? When you hand the dog back to the owners, what are the results? After all, you're training the handlers, not the dogs.

Mel.

Edited November 7, 2005 by StaffordsRule