*Karma* Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Our 6yr old female Rottie was limping slightly. Spoke to vet and mentioned that she had fallen up our back step. His advice was to rest her for a week, if she is still limping, bring her in for x-rays. X-ray shows bone chip in her shoulder and very, very slight shadowing of the shoulder joint. Vet tells me (I've used this vet for 20yrs for my dogs and horses and trust him very much), in his opinion shadowing is slight arthritis but he will have radiologist have a look JUST IN CASE it's osteosarcoma (bone cancer). That afternoon, he rings me to tell me that radiologist is convinced its early stages of osteosarcoma. Our beloved dog has to be on painkillers for the month or so until the pain becomes so bad that we will have to put her to sleep. I ask if we can amputate - his advice is no. I ask if we can remove the bone chip through surgery as I 'feel' that this is what is hurting not the 'bone cancer' (I say 'bone cancer' because Im not entirely convinced she has it. She is younger than the average dog that gets it and her eyes are v.bright and coat v.shiny still - she wants to live!), he tells me that bone cancer is extremely painful, and if they did open her up to remove chip, it will only cause the cancer to spread more from interferring with the joint. Plus, too major an operation when she is likely to only have a month or so anyway. Well, today she is in pain. Painkillers arent helping - she is laying around and not too interested in eating. When she walks, she holds her front leg up and tries to hop on three legs. I've rung the vet and booked her in to be euthanased (sp?) tomorrow morning. Husband wants 2nd lot of x-rays to be sure that cancer has indeed grown. His view (and I do agree to some point) is that if there is no change in the 'shadowing' then surely pain is caused by bone chip as the cancer would surely be more visible now at 5wks later. If so, then we can operate and our dog can have at least a few years of happy living. Im waiting on the vet to call me back to see if he will agree to further x-rays when she is in pain like this. What would you do? Im in two minds about it. I dont want to prolong the pain for her, but I also dont want to put her down if they are wrong and the pain is caused by the bone chip that can be removed. I am the first person to do anything to ease an animals suffering and cost definitely does not come into it. I would sell our house to have money to fix our pets, but Im not silly either. If there really is nothing, then I'll have to put her to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malleerr Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hi Karma - Welcome to DOL Sorry about your baby - i hope all goes well and that something can be done. Have you tried doing a search in the Health Section as there are quite a few post on cancer in dogs - and i think i can remember one about bone cancer. Maybe you should speak to your vet about seeing a specialist - they might be able to give you a second opinion and more info and what can and can't be done. I really feel for you it's so hard to know what to do in these types of situations. Hang in there and keep us posted. Sending healing thoughts your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hi Karma, what terrible news. I'm so sorry to hear this. I am no expert on bone cancer, so I can not offer any useful advice. But you strike me as a very humane person, so my only advice to you would be this: do whatever you have to (eg more xrays, tests, specialists) before you make any decision. Otherwise, you will always have some regrets and wonder whether you did the right thing. A second opinion doesn't hurt, and a definite conclusion, whether hopeful or painful, will at least ease your mind that you are doing the best thing for your baby. I can only hope that your gut feeling is correct. Best wishes to you all and let us know how you go. Many hugs sent your way and to your girl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hi Karma - so sorry to hear about your poor Rotti girl. I don't have personal experience, but have a friend who has just gone through this with her 5 year old Mal. She did opt for amputation and chemo, and Chilly managed pretty well for a while. Average survival time with that treatment is about 6 months, I think. I also know someone who opted for amputation with a Rotti male - saw the dog after amputation, and he was managing OK, but I don't know how long his survival was. OTOH, a friend opted not to amputate with her Golden Retriever, and I think his survival from diagnosis was only about 6 weeks. I think there is a bone cancer dogs Yahoo group - try looking on a search engine. That is such bad luck for you and your family. Good luck with the decision - and you'll obviously, from your post, be making the right decision for your girl. At least we have a way of helping our dogs, one way or the other. Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Argh Karma12 We have a Rotty with osteo as well, so my heart well and truely goes out to you. A few questions first: How long has it been since your girl was first x-rayed? Was it the 5 weeks you mentioned? What painkillers is she on? If I was in your shoes (and I am to a degree), I would be getting another x-ray done - if it is osteo it should be able to be confirmed by x-ray, especially if it is now advanced. From what I've read, on x-ray the bone should appear to be honeycombed. http://www.herbal-treatments.com - Robert McDowell, I highly recommend having a talk to him for advice from a natural point of view. He's happy to provide free phone, fax or email consults. We've had our Stewie on his herbal medications for around 7 months, and it's only in the last 3 weeks that he has started to need conventional pain killers. I'm also of the view, again if it were me, that if it had reached that point and I had the doubt that exists in your case I would probably opt for an operation before euthanising her. If the operation showed that it was definitely advanced osteo, then I would ask that she not be woken up. But, if it was a bone chip and it was felt that removing it would be likely to relieve her pain, then I would go that way. Damn it, I wish I could be of more help - please keep us informed. Trace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Karma* Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 Thanks everything for your advice and well wishes. I have emailed Robert McDowell's team and enquired about the bone cancer support treatment he has. I also relayed that info to my vet, but vet thought it may be too late as she has had intermittent lameness recently on her hind leg and he thinks (again) that it's either bone cancer or arthritis but more than likely bone cancer. She has been on the BARF diet for about 12 mths now (and looks fantastic!) and I have added things to her diet that Robert suggested (ie. buckwheat, linseed, millet, flaxseed oil etc) to help her condition. She is now on Previcox which Im told is the strongest she painkiller available for her condition. (Please someone tell me if there is something else that she could try!). She is approx 38kgs (and getting heavier as she is moving less and less) and gets 1 tablet per day. The tablet works for about 4-6 hours then the effects wear off, whereas a week ago, she showed no signs of lameness in a 24hour period while on the tablets. We also took her off the p/k's for a day to give her a break (at vets suggestion) but that is now impossible as it is too painful for her. Her x-rays were taken approx 3 wks ago. Our vet told us that it is an aggressive cancer and that more than likely we will see it appear as it grows. Still last night after feeling everywhere, I cant feel any swelling whatsoever in her front leg from her toes to her shoulder, which is why part of me doubts she really has advanced cancer. The vet is available in 10 mins for me to speak to (Im at work too, so Im dreading the phone call because Im only just holding it together now!) so hopefully he'll tell me that they'll do another lot of x-rays. Here is my beautiful girl with my 18mth old son - they adore each other! Thanks everyone for your advice and well wishes. I have emailed Robert McDowell's team and enquired about the bone cancer support treatment he has. I also relayed that info to my vet, but vet thought it may be too late as she has had intermittent lameness recently on her hind leg and he thinks (again) that it's either bone cancer or arthritis but more than likely bone cancer. She has been on the BARF diet for about 12 mths now (and looks fantastic!) and I have added things to her diet that Robert suggested (ie. buckwheat, linseed, millet, flaxseed oil etc) to help her condition. She is now on Previcox which Im told is the strongest she painkiller available for her condition. (Please someone tell me if there is something else that she could try!). She is approx 38kgs (and getting heavier as she is moving less and less) and gets 1 tablet per day. The tablet works for about 4-6 hours then the effects wear off, whereas a week ago, she showed no signs of lameness in a 24hour period while on the tablets. We also took her off the p/k's for a day to give her a break (at vets suggestion) but that is now impossible as it is too painful for her. Her x-rays were taken approx 3 wks ago. Our vet told us that it is an aggressive cancer and that more than likely we will see it appear as it grows. Still last night after feeling everywhere, I cant feel any swelling whatsoever in her front leg from her toes to her shoulder, which is why part of me doubts she really has advanced cancer. The vet is available in 10 mins for me to speak to (Im at work too, so Im dreading the phone call because Im only just holding it together now!) so hopefully he'll tell me that they'll do another lot of x-rays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Karma* Posted February 20, 2006 Author Share Posted February 20, 2006 oops - posted that message twice (not sure what happened). Have just spoken to vet and he is happy to do more x-rays first thing tomorrow morning. Fingers-cross it is 'just' the bone chip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimjm Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Karma12 Im sorry to hear about your beloved friend. I lost my rottie to cancer just over 12months ago now. My advice would be get more xrays talk to your vet there is an ocology specialist here in Melbourne ( I will give you details if you PM me) get a second or 3rd opinion if you have to to make you feel sure. I would doubt any vet will want to do surgery in a joint affected like this and you will probarly find if it is cancer this is where the majority of pain is coming from. Have lots of cuddles and pats do all your favourite things together and listen to your dog they WILL tell you when the time is right. (Everyone said this to me about my girl and I didnt believe it until the time come and she looked at me and I just knew) My thoughts are with you. Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Still last night after feeling everywhere, I cant feel any swelling whatsoever in her front leg from her toes to her shoulder, which is why part of me doubts she really has advanced cancer. I'm not a vet or an expert in the condition, but that IS surprising in my experience. I've had two dogs with osteo - one in the shoulder and the other in the front leg. In both cases it's been a very obvious swelling that grows markedly as the cancer progresses. Cain, our old boy who had it in his shoulder, actually looked like his shoulder had been dislocated because of the size of the growth - it was enormous. I guess it depends on how the tumor grows, but I would have expected to feel swelling well before now. Sending strength and thoughts to you. Perhaps if your vet won't x-ray you could visit another who would? Trace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canatol Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I have had 2 greyhounds at age 7 develop bone cancer. Each one was given a month to live at the time they were diagnosed. The first one had it in her front leg. She made it 3 months and the cancer was visible as an extremely fast growing lump. (About the size of a grapefruit at the end) The second one had it in her hip socket. It was not visible (did not swell) and she made it almost a year. I took both of them to a homeopathic vet. (These incidents happened years apart so it was a different vet for each of them.) Both were given shark cartilage and Vit A, plus a herbal remedy. I used Rescue Remedy when the prescribed pain medications wore off and they weren't due for another dose till later. The second also got hoxsey. Who knows if these extra supplements and remedies actually helped, but I knew that at least I was actively fighting the cancer and giving them all the time they had left. Each time we agonized about when was the right time to give them peace. I think your dog will let you know when she is ready to stop fighting. Hope this helps ... Here's hoping it was a wrong diagnosis -- Let us know what the new xrays say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairo1 Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hi Karma, I am so sorry to hear of your Rottie's predicament I have had first hand experience with osteosarcoma in one of my borzoi girls. Her condition came on very quickly and within a week she was screaming in pain. She was a bit lame for a day or two initially and I thought it was a running injury and then when she became distressed a few days later I took her to the vet only to find that she had the dreaded C in the shoulder. There really was little for me to do except let her go to heaven. . . . . it really would have been unfair for me to have amputated because Chita was a dog that LOVED to run (being a sight hound). It was one of the saddest days of my life but I am glad that I let her go rather than inflict the dreaded chemotherapy and amputation on such a wonderful friend. I sympathise with you on this - Chita was in extreme pain and there was not much choice for me. In your case, I hope that your Rottie girl is coping alright and that you have the opportunity to persue other forms of healthcare. All the best in this trying time Kind Regards Cairo1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Karma* Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Can you believe that after spending the night on her dogbed with her (thinking it was my last night with her), she has woken up with barely a limp!! Seems she must've had just an off day or two in the last two days and today is a 'good' day. She definitely wont be PTS today Well Karma (that's our dogs name!) had her x-rays and the vet has rung to say that there is very minimal change in the x-ray now to the one taken 4wks ago. Im now 99% convinced then that pain is caused by bone chip not cancer (if she even has it? surely by now it would've grown?). I asked about operating to remove the bone chip and he said he would speak to me further about it when I pick her up this afternoon but he is very hesitant to do the op as it's major surgery (?) and quite painful recovery. Im going to ask for the x-rays to take home or if I can take a photo of the x-rays (!) so that I can get a second opinion on the op as I dont think its humane to just leave it there, regardless of the type of surgery or recovery time. In the end, if it's left there and we do nothing, she'll still be in pain so why not do the op to remove the source of the pain even if she continues to be in pain for a further 4 wks or so while recovering? Our vet is usually fantastic and usually I trust him 100%, but it just doesnt sit right with me this time. If anyone knows of a dog that has had a bone chip removed, or of a very good vet in the Sydney (south-western area would be great!) - please post here or email me on [email protected]. Likewise, if someone has any suggestions for natural painkillers that we can give her until her op is done - that would be very much appreciated also. We are definitely open to naturapathic / homeopathic suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I don't live in Sydney, but I have heard very good reports of Karen Hedberg and Rob Zammit, however I don't think that they're in the south-west. I would be taking this dog to a specialist oncologist, I'm sure that if you check your yellow pages you will find one in Sydney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hi, I have a stafford (Ollie) here that has Mast Cell cancer (we are in Canberra)... He is being treated by an holistic vet in Sydney as well as our regular vet (who also liaises with Rob Straw - oncologist - from Animal Cancer Care, in Sydney)... Rod and his team are so good, they have assisted us all the way. And you can never ask too many questions... Our holistic vet is so wonderful, she is in contact with our regular vet and gets Ollie's results all the time, in case she needs to adjust his vitamins or herbs... We have telephone consults and I was surprised that it was so reasonably priced... Here are their contact details All Natural Vet Care I would definitely get a second opinion, more xrays etc - you just have to be sure... IMO.. Good luck Jodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Karma* Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Well, I jumped the gun in posting earlier. Before picking Karma up I asked our vet to x-ray Karma's full leg and chest just to be 100% sure that the bone cancer isnt anywhere else. What do you know - the tumour is in the upper limb of her leg not her shoulder, which is why he/we missed it. It isnt 'advanced' but an average dog (from his point of view) with this sized tumour would have 6-8wks. We are going to try Robert McDowell's cancer support treatment and I will also contact the Cancer specialist mentioned two posts above. Thanks again everyone for your help. Im new to this forum but it's really nice to know that 'strangers' care as much as you guys do! You feel silly trying to explain to non-doggy people what your pets mean to you because they see dogs just as dogs, whereas I (and obviously you guys too) see them as our kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Karma - so sorry to here of your dog's tale, and the roller coaster ride your having with the ups and downs of her health. It all makes for a tough time ... this I know. to you and Karma, along with good thoughts for health and good living for the time that is left - let us hope that this will be longer than your Vet holds hope for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pampa Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Oh Karma I'm so sorry... At lunch time yesterday you had us hoping that your vet had made a wrong diagnosis and unfortunately when I checked in again now, it seems he was right... The news is dreadful and I can imagine the heartbreak you are going through. Try and keep your chin up, when you go out, take her with you as often as you can and make your last months together as wonderful as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Oh I'm really sorry... I think we were all hoping that perhaps the vets were wrong. I guess the positive thing now is that you do know for sure and can make sure poor Karma gets the very best care and treatment until her time comes. And I'm sure she will be lavished with much love to make her shortened time here as happy as possible. I truly feel for you the pain you must be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojay Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Best of luck with your girl Karma. I had a similar experience with my rottie last year. My vet thought it was initially osteochondritis dessicans and we treated with nsaid's but he just kept getting worse, my instincts told me long before that something was not quite right. He had no swelling, intermittent good and bad days but eventually the bad outweighed the good and one night he collapsed and could not move for the pain...I knew two days before that his time was not far away. Even after he was pts, the vet still could not palpate any lumps or bumps other than the usual old age lipomas. I am glad that you are in a financial position to have the x-rays and follow up with a specialist, we had just bought a house when I lost my boy so we had no extra to give him anything but final peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Karma* Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 I've ordered the Maritime Pine Bark, Bone Cancer Support and Anti-Inflammatory Mix from Robert McDowell. I now have $7 in my savings account but if it helps to relieve some of her pain it will be money well spent. I tried earlier to post some pics of Karma & our 19mth old son (who adores her, and vice versa) but it didnt work - so here's trying again ! By the way, we've owned Labradors, Kelpies, German Shepherds in the past. Karma is our first Rottie - I can honestly say I will NEVER look at any other breed again. I dont know if it's just good breeding or what, but she has seriously been the BEST dog I've ever owned or known of. She's the greatest guarddog, and also the best playmate for kids. She was never a naughty puppy and grew out of digging pretty quickly. We've have never had concern to watch her around our son (although with ANY breed of dog, we never leave them out of our sight). If you're thinking of buying one - find a good breeder and go for it! You will never look at another breed again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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