Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 OK here is the story. A friend of mine recently got a Rottie Pup. Unfortunately not from a registered breeder so can't get help there. She knows I would have preferred she get a rescue dog, slightly older and with some basic training as they have a large family, but I'm not into saying "I told you so" so can we not go there and deal with the issue at hand (please pretty please with sugar on top) Anyway they have been going well with training and getting the kids involved with feeding etc but this is an extract of an email I received last night. Talking of dogs my puppy is a naughty boy , he is growling at the kids when they go near his food bowl . Today he was eatting plastic that had come from the devon knob that i got for him & "R" took it off him & he bite her , drew blood ... He is a naughty boy , "R" was very upset & crying etc . Do you think i need to worry about this type of behaviour ? I had to make the babies come inside as i could not trust him after that . The babies normally just play in the yard and he does not bother them . I don't have the experience or knowledge to help deal with this, the child bitten is 10/11yo and has a puncture in her hand, they also have toddlers and I am greatly concerned. I have suggested to start with not leaving any bowls down at all...give puppy 5-10 mins time alone to eat and take it away, obviously continue working on basic obedience and getting the kids established as above the dog. They are a lovely hard working family with 7 children under 12yo, limited experience with dogs. What would you suggest ?? I am going to send her a link to this thread but don't know if she will be brave enough to post just yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 First and foremost: Don't leave the pup with the children unattended. Your friend needs to teach the pup social skills (as required by humans) such as inhibited bite; appropriate interaction; etc. etc. The pup is too young to understand this yet and without training but left to his own devices, of course it is going to act like a dog and NOT learn our human ways. This is not going to be improved by leaving the pup with children who in turn have no way of knowing or being able to manage a pup to suitably train it either. Seven children all under 12yo Are the parents going to have the time necessary? I presume they were aware of the time required to allocate training the puppy, not to mention the extra effort of trying to train & socialise a pup whilst at the same time train & socialise children just as appropriately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Sunny... This is a pack altercation...and needs to be nipped in the bud immediately! At 11 yrs old...the child involved should be able to exercise pack leadership signals over the dog...ie: feeding, correction & dominance. I know there's alot of people here who don't agree with me...but I would advise your friend to get the child that was challenged to take over feeding....and not let the dog get away with anything but complete complience...ie: waiting for the releaase!....as well as structured exercises where the child takes toys from the dog with a firm growl & strong tone of voice...the sort that says "I'm not to be messed with!" The only reason a dog would bite the child is if he thought he had a higher pack status...and that is what needs to be corrected! ....although I'm sure there will be alot of people who challenge me on that theory!!! Aus (hiding behind brick wall now! ;)) ...but still shouting, "just think about it for a second from the dog's point of view!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emncoop Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 I agree Aus!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 Keep in mind Aus that the child bitten is the eldest, what about the other kids younger than her ? Not having a go at you, I agree the pup needs to know he is the bottom of the pack, but how do you achieve that with children aged from 18mth twins to an 11yo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 And what should the parents do if under supervised interaction they see the pup showing dominance/aggression to the children ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ons Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 at puppy school the instructor had us roll our puppies over on to their back and hold them there for a little while. There was a lovely Akita there with two little girls - one looked about two - the instructor showed the littliest how to do this and told the mum that it was really really important that the whole family did this every day to the dog. Maybe all the kids could do it. Others may have different ideas though here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) Australdi - not knowing the OP's friend's children, I'd suggest the "TOT" program would be safer. The program is orchestrated by the parent, but a child can be next to them or held by them at the time. But as I mentioned earlier - it is about supervision .... I hesitate at the suggestion of the toy simply being "taken from the pup with a strong growl". This in itself can lead to resource guarding if not done correctly. I'm not saying don't do it at all .... but I am saying it should be done right. ETA - But not by the kids until the pup is better learnt and the kids have more respect from it .... and then only if supervised by a knowing adult. ETA: IMO, children should not be put in a position that may be seen as a challenge to a dog. In my very younger years, I had no issues with handling/dealing with pups/dogs ... I don't know if it was because I was naturally assertive; had a natural incling for interaction with animals .. or what. But not all kids are like that and in not knowing this family, I would not recommend any interaction by them that could lead them to harm from any pup or dog. Edited September 16, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 16, 2006 Author Share Posted September 16, 2006 Erny I sent them a link to the TOT ....see I can get something right So good to hear that is a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 i would not recomend alpha rolling or challenging the dog as it is resource guarding that is just asking for trouble... i would tell your friend to seek help from a qualified dog trainer im sure someone on here could help find one in your area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Erny I sent them a link to the TOT ....see I can get something right So good to hear that is a good idea Good, Sunny70. ;) Get them to follow the NILIF program too (Parents can begin teaching the youngsters - those too young to learn it or deal with it need to be supervised when around the pup so the parents can step in and stop pup from mouthing/scratching/jumping up etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 i would tell your friend to seek help from a qualified dog trainer im sure someone on here could help find one in your area Ditto that, Jeff. Sunny - "Tips" will be offered here. But your friend will benefit greatly with a one-on-one consultation/session with a qualified dog trainer/behaviourist. This person will be able to explain to the parents how the pup views things, which in turn will help the parents better understand what to do and why do it. And hey, when it comes to kids being involved ..... I think it would be a very wise (and, it appears, necessary) move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Sunny.. I'm not in any way advocating that the children shouldn't be suprevised around the dog..especially during this phase! ( or indeed, even in later phases ) all I was trying to highlight was at the age of 11, the child should be capable of exerting dominence over the dog.. As for the younger children, until the dog is completely comfortable with kids...they should at ALL times be supervised & any time the dog shows agressivness I personally believe it should be strongly corrected! (bugger if I diminish drive...a child's life/health is at stake!) I also agree that specific training from a behaviourist ought to be beneficial! ...but my most empathic point, was that this behaviour cannot & ought not to be tolerated..point blank!....it's simply too dangerous for both the childs health ...and the dogs! ;) Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Rather than taking stuff from the pup with a growl, what about teaching the dog to 'give' items and swap with food. Of course starting with low value items first. That way you are not putting people in a position where they might be bitten by resource guarding behaviour. This works well for the resource guarding dogs in the daycare where I work. Of course TOT and NILIF sound great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 (edited) . Edited May 19, 2009 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Thankyou Jeff Jones and Cavnrott for stepping in with some useful - and safer - advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlet Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 As an easy exercise I would make sure the dog eats after the family. If it's not possible after a meal let the dog see the children all eat something-even a bit of carrot- before he is fed. The kids probably love feeding the pup bits of their own food, biscuits etc. I can imagine the pup doing rather "naughty" things and still being given food from the kids. I had 4 boys 4yrs apart and know this goes on unless your really careful. It will become a competition between the children to see who can get the pups attention. Let the parents know that this shouldn't happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 CaveNrott ;) I actually agree with all that you are saying...apart from one small thing All humans in a dog family, should be taught & be able to confidently approach & take food from the dogs mouth...no matter the circumstances! when this is possible, you know you have a dog who "knows" his place in the pack! ....I'm simply expressing the ideal here...& agree that a profesional one on one trainer should be sought to facilitate this type of hierachy! I have trained dogs to this level and could have an 11mth old child eating food out of my dobe's mouth! ....(not that I encouraged that!!! euck!) but from what sunny described...it's a classic pack tussle & at the moment..dog considers himself higher than the kids! solution...both dog & kids need to be trained just MHO.... Aus :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 16, 2006 Share Posted September 16, 2006 Of course you 'should' be able to take food from the dog - but forcing the issue here with young children and a pup that has growled over food could easily end in a bite and a bad ending for all . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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