For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[Simply Grand]

Dog Fan wrote:

And yet we still have unregistered dogs. Just goes to show legislation and threats of punishment do not work

It doesn’t prove anything of the sort. All it proves is that many of the current standards lack the detail necessary to be enforceable or are simply not there in the first place.

For example, terms such as ‘reasonable actions’, ‘reasonable access’ and ‘appropriate feed and water’ are not defined in legislation. What do these terms mean? They are not defined so authorities are reluctant to proceed.

We must remember that the issue is much larger than a supply issue. The pet industry is worth billions of dollars a year to the Australian economy from vet services, pet insurance, grooming, pet food, pet toys and more. You can’t just shut puppy mills down without it having an effect on the economy. There has to be legislative changes to deal with this.

What we are seeing now is

• Serious health issues in dogs as a result of selective breeding for specific aesthetic traits.

• Poor health and welfare for breeding dogs cause by high intensity commercial breeding operations and a lack of resources to ensure compliance.

• High rates of impounding and euthanasia.

• And more

and are symptomatic of a system which allows for the treatment of companion animals as a perceived right rather than a responsibility.

As identified in the NSW Companion Animals Taskforce in its 2012 report, companion animal welfare and management is a whole of community responsibility involving breeders, pet shops, pet owners, vets, law enforcers, local and state government, and animal shelters and holding facilities. No one group or entity can be looked at in isolation.

There are so many things wrong with the current system and requires a holistic approach. The changes will happen eventually but it will take time and implementation of them will be gradual. For instance:

• All dog breeders to be licensed

• Breeder license number to be part of the microchipping information

• Requirement for all pounds, shelters, vets and RSPCA facilities to report to ensure enforcement

This type of reporting legislation is nothing new. It has already been implemented i n the financial services industry as part of the money laundering legislation. It covers the financial sector, gambling sector, bullion dealers and other professionals or businesses that provide services covered by the Act

...so the current desexing strategy is in place because it doesn't work thus protecting the sensible economy associated with the pet industry, while at the same time it gives the impression the authorities are doing something to address the pound issues and overpopulation?

Nah, obviously the devils in the detail.

No one can be trusted to be responsible.

So we license and set out every last detail of breeder protocol to be followed. No more reasonable action, reasonable access or appropriate feed and water. Tell 'em how many litres per kilo over 24 hours. The details of any reasonable action, exactly what an approved enclosure looks like and punish any deviation. Make it a strictly regulated, licensed industry so puppy farms will be a thing of the past. (not)

So we all know what responsibility looks like. We will finaly understand dogs. And none would dare to deviate.

Sorry. I still say very short sighted. I can almost guarantee that within a single human generation 'pet' dogs would be almost non existent. Problem solved.

Well meaning maybe, but very little understanding of any real value behind the partnership between man and dogs or how to preserve that. It is NOT by taking responsibility from Man and placing it with government, informed by 'industry leaders'.

Yep. In many places there already are laws around all this stuff and they are not laws that make the lives of animals better overall, despite being well meaning. AND they can only be enforced for those that abide by them AND they aren't necessarily enforced even then.

[moosmum]

Dog Fan wrote:

And yet we still have unregistered dogs. Just goes to show legislation and threats of punishment do not work

It doesn’t prove anything of the sort. All it proves is that many of the current standards lack the detail necessary to be enforceable or are simply not there in the first place.

For example, terms such as ‘reasonable actions’, ‘reasonable access’ and ‘appropriate feed and water’ are not defined in legislation. What do these terms mean? They are not defined so authorities are reluctant to proceed.

We must remember that the issue is much larger than a supply issue. The pet industry is worth billions of dollars a year to the Australian economy from vet services, pet insurance, grooming, pet food, pet toys and more. You can’t just shut puppy mills down without it having an effect on the economy. There has to be legislative changes to deal with this.

What we are seeing now is

• Serious health issues in dogs as a result of selective breeding for specific aesthetic traits.

• Poor health and welfare for breeding dogs cause by high intensity commercial breeding operations and a lack of resources to ensure compliance.

• High rates of impounding and euthanasia.

• And more

and are symptomatic of a system which allows for the treatment of companion animals as a perceived right rather than a responsibility.

As identified in the NSW Companion Animals Taskforce in its 2012 report, companion animal welfare and management is a whole of community responsibility involving breeders, pet shops, pet owners, vets, law enforcers, local and state government, and animal shelters and holding facilities. No one group or entity can be looked at in isolation.

There are so many things wrong with the current system and requires a holistic approach. The changes will happen eventually but it will take time and implementation of them will be gradual. For instance:

• All dog breeders to be licensed

• Breeder license number to be part of the microchipping information

• Requirement for all pounds, shelters, vets and RSPCA facilities to report to ensure enforcement

This type of reporting legislation is nothing new. It has already been implemented i n the financial services industry as part of the money laundering legislation. It covers the financial sector, gambling sector, bullion dealers and other professionals or businesses that provide services covered by the Act

...so the current desexing strategy is in place because it doesn't work thus protecting the sensible economy associated with the pet industry, while at the same time it gives the impression the authorities are doing something to address the pound issues and overpopulation?

Nah, obviously the devils in the detail.

No one can be trusted to be responsible.

So we license and set out every last detail of breeder protocol to be followed. No more reasonable action, reasonable access or appropriate feed and water. Tell 'em how many litres per kilo over 24 hours. The details of any reasonable action, exactly what an approved enclosure looks like and punish any deviation. Make it a strictly regulated, licensed industry so puppy farms will be a thing of the past. (not)

So we all know what responsibility looks like. We will finaly understand dogs. And none would dare to deviate.

Sorry. I still say very short sighted. I can almost guarantee that within a single human generation 'pet' dogs would be almost non existent. Problem solved.

Well meaning maybe, but very little understanding of any real value behind the partnership between man and dogs or how to preserve that. It is NOT by taking responsibility from Man and placing it with government, informed by 'industry leaders'.

Yep. In many places there already are laws around all this stuff and they are not laws that make the lives of animals better overall, despite being well meaning. AND they can only be enforced for those that abide by them AND they aren't necessarily enforced even then.

Punitive legislation for people making no attempt at responsibility is expected. But when you are telling people what responsibility MUST look like, all you are doing is taking it away. Reducing the ability to respond in any other manner.

Because of personal beliefs and indoctrination, not science. Because an inability for variable response IS NOT response-ability.

Its simply 'Fixing' a set response that is unable to adapt or evolve and unable to 'respond' to altered environment.

Not responsibility- Just fixed reaction, with no need to understand or reason.

Edited May 20, 2016 by moosmum

[Steve]

Punitive legislation for people making no attempt at responsibility is expected. But when you are telling people what responsibility MUST look like, all you are doing is taking it away. Reducing the ability to respond in any other manner.

Because of personal beliefs and indoctrination, not science. Because an inability for variable response IS NOT response-ability.

Its simply 'Fixing' a set response that is unable to adapt or evolve and unable to 'respond' to altered environment.

Not responsibility- Just fixed reaction, with no need to understand or reason.

Yes especially when what things are determined to make up what responsibility MUST be is based on biased, and false information and assumption.

With people who have come to their conclusions of what the problem is, who causes it and how to fix it are too afraid to challenge what they think and actively prevent a potential differing view to be discussed and alternatives tested.

The question of what is best for dogs is relegated secondary to the various other primary agendas and these days few other than vets benefit .Take yearly vaccinations and desexing out of a vet's budget and couple that with all the testing that has been pushed for 20 plus years with NO improvement for the dogs,[who else other than dog breeders would stick with a scoring system that doesn't work,makes vets and data keeping services rich, rather than testing possible alternatives and management solutions] and that won't be good for business.

[sandgrubber]

Just curious - is any of the micro chipping issues this policed? Generally my experience is if the vet finds a dog not micro chipped they happily microchip it and don't go down the avenue of perusing the person who sod the dog un-micro chipped.

I might be wrong, but I seem to recall that if your dog goes missing you have to pay more to spring it from the pound if it's unchipped. Hopefully someone from rescue while be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep true - an owner is fined if their dog is not chipped .

yep, for our area the council can fine dog owners with unregistered dogs (which requires the chip number - no registration without chip number) with up to AU$ 2,200!

And yet we still have unregistered dogs. Just goes to show legislation and threats of punishment do not work

For me the most important reason to register our dog is actually not to avoid punishment respectively fines, but to increase the chances that our dog can be found and safely returned if it would get missing so it is really more for the safety of the dog. I think it is also a requirement for getting membership in many dog clubs for obedience and agility training and the like.

Eta: ...maybe it has also something to do with the wide spread 'no worries... should be fine attitude' when people embarking on a dog ownership? ...it is good to be positive, but sometimes it is even better to consider possible consequences...

Not convinced about chipping. Years back, when I lived in WA, I had a couple pups, both microchipped, dig under the fence and go walkabout. They were very friendly, and wandered into someone's backyard all waggy like. The person took them in . . . had them scanned. The vet didn't find EITHER of the microchips . . . the chip had had migrated down the leg in both cases. I eventually found the pups by going house to house. If you really want to find a dog and it hasn't been killed on the road or stolen, you have a good chance of finding it . . . chip or no chip.

Edited May 21, 2016 by sandgrubber

[Simply Grand]

I would like to think that these days vets, pounds and shelters are much more aware of chip migration. We certainly scanned the whole body if it didn't show up between shoulder blades when I was at RSPCA.

A chipped dog with up to date details does save a lot of resources of the dog ends up somewhere that can read the chip and contact the owner. And gives an indication of whether an owner has no idea where their dog is, or knows and does not want to get it back (yes, that happens).

[Steve]

I microchip every puppy that I have bred since the laws became mandatory and every dog I own is chipped. No other reason than it is the law. I would not chip them if I had a choice.

I have had more chip failures - 7 that I know of than Ive had lost pets - none.

My link

[Willem]

I would like to think that these days vets, pounds and shelters are much more aware of chip migration. We certainly scanned the whole body if it didn't show up between shoulder blades when I was at RSPCA.

A chipped dog with up to date details does save a lot of resources of the dog ends up somewhere that can read the chip and contact the owner. And gives an indication of whether an owner has no idea where their dog is, or knows and does not want to get it back (yes, that happens).

our dog trainings club had an open day yesterday with demonstrations, booths from council, vets and shops etc....so I took the chance and got the chip checked - still there where it should be. I also used the opportunity for discussions. Rough guess from the rangers was that approx. 1 out of 10 dogs they have to deal with don't have a chip.

Had also some discussions with a vet about desexing, vaccination regimes, diseases and so on...one of his comments that made me laugh was:...a sure recipe for starting a fight during a vet conference is starting a discussion about vaccination ... :D ...I think that are at least some positive signs that something is happening. Conversely the topic desexing respectively the associated possible negative side effects seem to be widely acknowledged.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Willem

[Dogdragon]

Steve wrote:

Not true - terms such as reasonable actions, reasonable access and appropriate feed and water are not pertinent to legislation surrounding registration and identification.

I wasn’t ever suggesting they were. My view of this issue is in relation to several pieces of legislation, not just The Companion Animals Act of NSW.

I said: There are so many things wrong with the current system and requires a holistic approach

Steve wrote:

Looks to me that it shows that legislation and threats of punishment alone don't work for a very large number in our community

Absolutely nothing is absolute. Same argument for Education programs alone yeah?

Steve wrote:

Everyone in NSW who breeds a dog and has it microchipped post 1st July 2016 will have a breeder number .They are not calling it a licence but a registration number and it is part of the microchipping information

In NSW,…..it’s a start but not the end result.

Steve wrote:Licences have been ruled out in NSW and so has any suggestion that vets will be expected to report.

Yes for the moment…….Its a WIP

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/content/agriculture/livestock/animal-welfare/general/cabs

Will any legislative changes be made?

The Government will be progressing implementation of further Taskforce recommendations including changes to the Companion Animals Act, to enable an improved register as well as other improvements to the Responsible Pet Ownership Program.

Education programs facilitating legislative changes.

[Steve]

Time will tell but Ill be surprised if it makes any dog suffer less and none of it in my opinion will impact on numbers in pounds.

[asal]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

[Dogdragon]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume it’s too hard to do that for some.

Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact....

[JulesP]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

i'm not in NSW but it states quite clearly on the membership form that Associate members can not apply for a prefix. And you need to be a member for 12 months.

I don't think it is particularly hard to become a ANKC breeder.

[Dogdragon]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

i'm not in NSW but it states quite clearly on the membership form that Associate members can not apply for a prefix. And you need to be a member for 12 months.

I don't think it is particularly hard to become a ANKC breeder.

Become a Breeder

To become a DOGS NSW Registered Breeder, here's what to do:

1. Become a financial member of DOGS NSW and achieve a minimum period of twelve months continuous Membership

2. Become the registered owner of a female purebred dog/s you wish to breed with, so that your name appears as the owner on the Certificate of Registration & Pedigree (Main Register)

3. Ensure that the Sire (Father) that you have chosen to mate to your bitch is owned either by a financial member of DOGS NSW or an interstate Controlling Body.

4. Apply for a Breeder Prefix which will identify all dogs bred by you and becomes the first word before the names of all puppies to be registered. For example, the Prefix ‘LOGIC’ then pups name ‘GOLD NUGGET’ the full registered name of the puppy would then be ‘LOGIC GOLD NUGGET’.
Indicate your 8 choices on the Prefix Application form. [breeders Prefix is also sometimes referred to as your Kennel Name]

5. If you only include 2 or 3, and those rejected by the ANKC National Prefix Register, then you will be required to submit another form.

As soon as your Prefix Application is accepted by Dogs NSW you will be enrolled in the Dogs NSW Online Members Education Prefix Program which must be undertaken over a minimum period of six months.

When you join DOGS NSW you sign to agree and abide by its Constitution and Regulations. This includes Part I/1A: The Register & Registration and Part XIII: Code of Ethics. It is mandatory that you make yourself familiar with both of these Regulations.

6. During the period you are studying the MEPP course material, your Breeders Prefix application will be sent to the ANKC National Prefix Register for approval of your kennel name, this name will only be available and ready for use after you undertake the MEPP Examination and an inspection of your premises has been conducted and clearance given by the Inspector.

Caution: Under no circumstances are you authorised to breed a litter prior to registration of your Prefix and should you do so whilst a Member of Dogs NSW, firstly the litter would not be registered and, in all likelihood, you would face a Judicial Inquiry.

http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/breeding/how-to-become-a-breeder.html

[JulesP]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

i'm not in NSW but it states quite clearly on the membership form that Associate members can not apply for a prefix. And you need to be a member for 12 months.

I don't think it is particularly hard to become a ANKC breeder.

Become a Breeder

To become a DOGS NSW Registered Breeder, here's what to do:

1. Become a financial member of DOGS NSW and achieve a minimum period of twelve months continuous Membership

2. Become the registered owner of a female purebred dog/s you wish to breed with, so that your name appears as the owner on the Certificate of Registration & Pedigree (Main Register)

3. Ensure that the Sire (Father) that you have chosen to mate to your bitch is owned either by a financial member of DOGS NSW or an interstate Controlling Body.

4. Apply for a Breeder Prefix which will identify all dogs bred by you and becomes the first word before the names of all puppies to be registered. For example, the Prefix ‘LOGIC’ then pups name ‘GOLD NUGGET’ the full registered name of the puppy would then be ‘LOGIC GOLD NUGGET’.
Indicate your 8 choices on the Prefix Application form. [breeders Prefix is also sometimes referred to as your Kennel Name]

5. If you only include 2 or 3, and those rejected by the ANKC National Prefix Register, then you will be required to submit another form.

As soon as your Prefix Application is accepted by Dogs NSW you will be enrolled in the Dogs NSW Online Members Education Prefix Program which must be undertaken over a minimum period of six months.

When you join DOGS NSW you sign to agree and abide by its Constitution and Regulations. This includes Part I/1A: The Register & Registration and Part XIII: Code of Ethics. It is mandatory that you make yourself familiar with both of these Regulations.

6. During the period you are studying the MEPP course material, your Breeders Prefix application will be sent to the ANKC National Prefix Register for approval of your kennel name, this name will only be available and ready for use after you undertake the MEPP Examination and an inspection of your premises has been conducted and clearance given by the Inspector.

Caution: Under no circumstances are you authorised to breed a litter prior to registration of your Prefix and should you do so whilst a Member of Dogs NSW, firstly the litter would not be registered and, in all likelihood, you would face a Judicial Inquiry.

http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/breeding/how-to-become-a-breeder.html

I don't know why you have quoted me Are you trying to say it is hard? I've obviously just looked up the NSW rules so I assume you aren't just giving me the info.

[Dogdragon]

lol, :laugh: well I was saying that maybe that's what asal thinks.....its too hard what with all the legislation surrounding it. Didn't mean to quote you

[asal]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume it’s too hard to do that for some.

Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact....

its not something i looked into , just what I was told.

as for the one who paid up for associate sounds like misunderstanding both sides of the counter. staff asked if they intended to breed or show. the inquirer knew couldn't breed until eligible for a prefix so said show. and was told associate was all that was needed and didn't say wanted to apply for one when eligible

[Willem]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume it’s too hard to do that for some.

Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact....

@ asal: thanks - if we look at the dog numbers produced by registered breeders (where we know that most of them will be registered) and the dog numbers coming from 'underground' breeders I think it might be justified to contemplate whether it is possible to change the ratio and whether there are options for improvements...

@dogdragon: I guess on the one side there are breeders who doing it only for money and on the other side there are the ones who put pride into what they doing....and there are many between...

[Dogdragon]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume it’s too hard to do that for some.

Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact....

@ asal: thanks - if we look at the dog numbers produced by registered breeders (where we know that most of them will be registered) and the dog numbers coming from 'underground' breeders I think it might be justified to contemplate whether it is possible to change the ratio and whether there are options for improvements...

@dogdragon: I guess on the one side there are breeders who doing it only for money and on the other side there are the ones who put pride into what they doing....and there are many between...

Point?

[Willem]

willem suggested this belongs here

Re the difficulties to become an ANKC breeder

....I know how many once I explain the waiting time chuck it in to the too hard basket. one has three outstanding dogs and to my knowledge became a member 2 years ago so happily went in to apply for a prefix, except turns out when applied for membership was told if your only showing you only need to be an associate member. guess what, 2 years as an associate member doesnt count, have to be a full member for 18 months. and yes has given up. so 3 lovely dogs lost to be breed and one once enthusiastic potential addition to the rapidly thinning ranks

The decision to become a breeder is not something you do lightly to my mind. You are required to educate yourself and that education includes the basic requirement of understanding the process of the application….Not sure what the point is…..I assume its too hard to do that for some.

Hope I am not coming across too abrupt but that's the way I see it......not very good on tact....

@ asal: thanks - if we look at the dog numbers produced by registered breeders (where we know that most of them will be registered) and the dog numbers coming from 'underground' breeders I think it might be justified to contemplate whether it is possible to change the ratio and whether there are options for improvements...

@dogdragon: I guess on the one side there are breeders who doing it only for money and on the other side there are the ones who put pride into what they doing....and there are many between...

Point?

if we know (?) that the pup production of 'underground' breeders are what causes the overpopulation / pound problems it might we worthwhile to assess whether there are options to motivate them to become registered breeders. There might be breeders that would be happy to become an ANKC breeder, but on the other hand they might be put off by all the formal stuff required - some offered support and guidance might be all what is needed. Some might respond to incentives...some might only respond to fines and won't bother at all.

From all the information that built up in the meanwhile in this thread in my opinion there won't be any solution without decreasing the numbers of underground breeders and increasing the numbers of registered, law obeying breeders. That (the ratio between underground and legal breeding) seems to be also the biggest difference in comparison with other developed countries.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Willem

[Dogdragon]

Willem wrote:

if we know (?) that the pup production of 'underground' breeders are what causes the overpopulation / pound problems it might we worthwhile to assess whether there are options to motivate them to become registered breeders.

Well, first of all we don’t know that, all we know is that they are there(in shelters). We have not and can not collect those stats?

Lets go over this statement. Underground breeders? I assume you are referring to puppy mills? These are not illegal unless of course they are “cruel” to the animal so how can you call them underground?

Willem wrote:

Pup production of underground breeders are what causes the overpopulation/pound problems?

Really? Anything we market is based on supply and demand. If the demand is there then supply will fill that demand – this goes for puppies too. …..Lets look at this so called overpopulation of dogs. How do we measure this? and how can you prove that an overpopulation of dogs is what causes the dogs in shelters? Where are your stats on this? We rarely see puppies in shelters and when we do they are snapped up fairly quickly. What causes dogs in shelters is quite simple – irresponsible dog owners.

Willem wrote:

There might be breeders that would be happy to become an ANKC breeder, but on the other hand they might be put off by all the formal stuff required - some offered support and guidance might be all what is needed. Some might respond to incentives...some might only respond to fines and won't bother at all.

Why would they, when there is absolutely nothing in it for them? They can breed all the dogs they want – the demand is there for cheap dogs and the breeding process for them is lower costs opposed to becoming a registered breeder. Assuming of course they are breeding pure bred dogs, that in itself poses problems for the registration process. How would you go about this under the current registration process? Big changes there…….Only way I can see is state government licensing for all breeders no matter what type of dog you’re breeding.

Willem wrote:

From all the information that built up in the meanwhile in this thread in my opinion there won't be any solution without decreasing the numbers of underground breeders and increasing the numbers of registered, law obeying breeders.

Absolutely agree 100% it’s the path taken we disagree on.