SkySoaringMagpie

FB is a useful tool for bringing together not just the very best of the breed but the very worst too. I think most breeds have fruitcakes flogging litter after litter of hard to sell puppies on FB - I know we do, and it breaks my heart. However, they are a tiny minority when you consider how many breeders there are world wide. They often take up much more space than they deserve, and I'm not convinced it's worth engaging with them - especially not when they have an audience to play out their long ago scripted dramas to. If I could give advice to people entering the "breed" groups it's to join a few, and watch, and listen, and take notes - there is some great info there. But think carefully about stepping into hot areas in what can be a byzantine system of codes, history and allegiances. Someone who has been "rejected" by the system - whether it's their KC revoking their membership, or the community of their peers getting sick of cleaning up after them, or whatever - is not usually going to be in the mood to listen to some hints and tips on best practice. We have one in particular who is incredibly charming, his supporters can never believe all the "terrible" things people say about him - until he unleashes one of his profanity laden paranoid rants at them, and then they finally get it. So all is not what it seems - sometimes the ones who are saying all the right things are lying through their teeth too. Edited to make it clear I'm talking about the global FB community.

Aphra posted this in the thread about the Victorian Collie breeder, and it sums up perfectly what my issue is with them: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/251252-long-wait-80-charges/page__view__findpost__p__6277641 They talk about a law for Oscar, but they are not very hot on obeying existing laws around theft and trespass

I thought that too! .....but it may highlight the issue to a whole new bunch of people, so maybe not entirely without merit! I would not be surprised if the demographic who buy Cleo are also buying these sorts of puppy farmed dogs. So perhaps not so much an investigation by Cleo and more a targeted supply of material by Oscar's Law et al to Cleo to try and open a few eyes about where their handbag dogs come from? I am no fan of Oscar's Law or their methods but we can't defend a trade in misery either. There are other ways to make money and it doesn't just stop at Asia, a good proportion of unwanted dogs in the Middle East come from Asian puppy farms or Asian puppy farm stock - this poor dog for instance (warning - graphic content): https://www.facebook.com/HuskyTeddyWantsToSurviveBahrain Please not I am not saying "don't sell to Asian people" I am saying that trading in farmed companion animals to Asia is a shitty thing to be involved in.

Thanks for the help everyone, but particular thanks to the person who PM'd me (they can't post in this forum) and suggested Nebu, the Egyptian symbol for gold.

:laugh: No! :D Thank you for the suggestions everyone, some good stuff in there.

How do you get in contact with a good breeder overseas and know that they are a good breeder and have good dogs? You watch them in breed forums online, and you get introductions and you visit them in person. Try "related" breeds here in Australia too for referrals, most Saluki people here can recommend someone they would try for a Sloughi for example. what is involved before the Australian quarantine requirements like rabies vaccine and quarantine? The dog has to do 150 days after the rabies vacc and titre test before it can depart from most countries. This means either finding a breeder prepared to run the dog on, or finding a friend in the country prepared to have the dog for 4-5months, and either way - probably boarding fees of some kind. You really need a good agent, as it's hellishly complicated and includes locating government vets to stamp paperwork and different vaccs at different times. What extra costs are involved and are purebred dogs a similar price internationally as they are here in Aust? The prices are similar in as much as they vary a lot. For many the price is the relationship, not the cash. Best case scenario you are probably not getting much change out of 10K all up for the dog and getting it here. If you import a dog that is not currently in Australia, how does the breed get registered with the ANKC? Can't help with that but I would try talking to the Azawakh people in Melbourne as they recently did it. Is visiting the breeder overseas a norm? IMO you would be nuts not to unless you have some other way of confirming that you are getting exactly what you think you are. Testicles, teeth and temperament really need to be checked in person, if not by you, then by someone you trust. Edited because I can't count :laugh:

I would swap out the tuna for sardines or mackerel. The mobile dog wash products are probably stripping out the coat, high grade doesn't necessarily mean something that suits the particular dog. It may also be genetic. I have a bitch here who is nursing pups and her coat, despite not having being bathed since she gave birth, is gleaming and glossy - her lines are just like that. She never has dull coat. OTOH, I have had dogs who have awful combo coats (greasy ears and dry tails) and while I can match a bathing solution for it, it's also genetic. Are you removing dead coat? Does she sit in the sun or by a heat source a lot? Just some things to ponder...

Yes, that was just the flights, not the rest of the vet and paperwork, but it is a good price. Especially as I recently got quotes for Sydney-Auckland and it was more!! You could fly a person business class from Sydney to Auckland on the amount of money they were after and have change left over to do some shopping. Wish I understood how that works.

LOL - no baddies!

Looking for some name help as Google is not throwing up anything sounding that promising. I'm after ideas for a male Saluki call name on the theme of "gold" or "golden". I have settled on the reg name I want, it's Arabic meaning "hero of gold" but it does not pass the porch test at all so I can't adapt it for the call name.

I paid roughly 1400 euro for the flights from Amsterdam to Melbourne.

It's complicated because they have to have the rabies vacc, a titre and then wait 150 days before they can leave - plus a bunch of other things. So what you really need is a good agent to do the lot for you and make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed. In that context the expense also really depends on whether the breeder is going to to charge boarding fees etc or whether you have to arrange for the dog to do the 150 days elsewhere (with friends or in a kennel for example). I used VCK from Europe (Amsterdam) and would recommend them unhesitatingly, they were great, reliable, professional and priced competitively. Can't help with direct from the UK tho'.

Temperament in a photograph. This is the sire of my imports. Yes I visited Europe, yes I met many of the other relatives while I was there. I'm not saying you should not buy sight unseen, you certainly should not. But I am saying that many breeders still really care about temperament and the results are wonderful.

Hilarious in a sad kind of way. Does it not strike people that law enforcement officers and former law enforcement officers might own dogs and be members of DOL? Or is the fact that they are female enough for people to discount the possibility? FWIW, there are currently serving and former police, customs, quarantine and other regulatory officers who own dogs and who are members here. I think this whole thread is an object lesson in remembering that you may not be the expert in the room.

My sense is that it's gotten worse over time, but it's aggravated by a bitch being in at the moment, which has in turn aggravated me enough to post. :laugh: I'd like to get on top of it when the girls aren't in, then I might have a chance of getting on top of it when they are.

Hrm, I might start with a radio and some visual barriers I think. Because I'd rather prevent it starting than accidentally reinforce them doing it under all sorts of circumstances :laugh: :laugh: I don't think that is what Nek is suggesting tho', so if I can't stop them starting, I'll look into targeted "quiet" training of the instigators.

Yes, it's usually a combination of barrier frustration and FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) in the runs - see response to Nek above. Once two or three start, the rest join in. I think you are both right about remote disrupters but I'm also wondering if a visual barrier might help too. Edited to add: It's probably at worst 5 times a day when the girls are in season, but that's 4 times more than I'm really prepared to live with. Alyosha, I am so glad mine isn't a 2am or 4am thing!

Ta. I do know who the instigators are - they are the ones with the biggest cases of FOMO when they see OH or myself or one of the other dogs out doing something that they aren't doing. It used to be I could call their names to pick them off and shut them up but the FOMO has been winning of late. I did try a "hand of god" style approach by banging on the back of the runs and that worked instantly, but I would imagine once they got over the surprise of that it would no longer work.

OK, talk to me about howling. It is really giving me the irrits. It used to be that they would only howl when OH and I arrived home, and they would respond to voice commands to knock it off. These days they are breaking into song more often, and are less responsive to voice control. It's a large pack of 10 dogs, and I don't want to push the generosity of my neighbours. They are not baying breeds - all sighthounds. I have a couple of whingers that I didn't have 3 years ago, and I'm wondering if the whinging is triggering the howling. I do have a bitch in season at the moment, but I'm of the school of thought that they should still behave around the ladies so I'm not too inclined to let them get away with it on that basis. They don't nuisance bark, they are all really good about barking. Anyway. Thoughts? I'm especially interested from anyone who has knocked it on the head in a pack of 5 or more.

Don't look at the Saluki standard one then... But it is lacking in many regards. Oi oi oi!! Them's fightin' words! :laugh: The Saluki standard is beautiful, and just needs to be read with the general characteristics at the forefront of one's mind. When people have messed with the standard, they have invariably watered it down to fit local politics at the time (colour, removing performance criteria) and made it worse as a result. Under general characteristics it says: The expression should be dignified and gentle with deep, faithful, farseeing eyes. That is as much a description of temperament as it is anything else. You don't get "dignified" if you hit the deck and wee yourself every time someone so much as looks at you, and it's tricky to be gentle if you want to take out the nearest same sex adult dog in any encounter. Someone once explained those two words to me by way of comparing a line up of Open Dog Afghans (a certain keen fierceness) with a line up of Open Dog Salukis. That's when the dignified and gentle of the Saluki comes through. There is also a very useful breed extension available on the ANKC website which says: Characteristic temperament is reserved with strangers, dignified, intelligent and independent, neither nervous nor aggressive. Adolescents should be handled with sensitivity

Something that might have been missed in HW post is that once you have runs on the board as a responsible owner who will work with the dog (show or dog sport) and give it a great home life people will practically fling puppies at you. But if you approach it without having "paid your dues" and expect people to give a bargain price to an unknown buyer, well, more often than not you'll be disappointed.

I wouldn't try it with my girls either, rather be safe than sorry. LOL, no, I wasn't suggesting anyone try it. I think it was so striking because it was a bit unusual. My girl certainly didn't share with her pack mate until the pups started eating, then she was quite happy that 'aunty' interact with them, under my watchful eye of course. I was welcome from the beginning, other people were welcome baby sitters from day 2, the cat was a tolerated visitor from about 1 week, but my other bitch received visiting rights a lot later than the rest of us. Eminently sensible. Your girls are also eminently sensible, unlike my two older girls who are usually saying sotto voce "bitch, you are a bitch" to each other. They get on well enough to live with each other but puppies will take some careful introduction probably after the boys.

I wouldn't try it with my girls either, rather be safe than sorry.

People are weird, if you said something like that about their kids they'd flip. Dogs are not interchangeable in terms of their relationships with their humans.