SkySoaringMagpie

Reporting back, it worked perfectly for me but only because I ignored the little warning that came up saying that it was too like something else on the database. So this thread was useful in that respect :D

A piece of advice that has stood this particular control freak perfectionist in good stead: You can predict and manage a lot, but you cannot predict and manage everything. At various stages in your dog's life, things are going to happen that you would prefer had not happened. The best thing you can do in those situations is lead by example, it may have annoyed you, worried you or freaked you out but you have to cue the reaction you want your dog to have and put your own baggage on the back burner. Sorry about the mutilated metaphor, but hopefully you know what I mean. Yes, we can all tell you that the owners of those other dogs were numpties, but numpties will always be with us. As you get more experience, you will become more confident dealing with a wider range of "gee, I wish that hadn't happened" situations.

Mine also, which is why I was very surprised at the NSW CA taskforce recommending an exemption from the licensing proposals for "accidental" litters. As a piece of policy, that seemed designed to ensure that we always have a supply of unwanted back yard bred dogs.

Steve I think an estimate of 10 per cent for registered pure breeds is too high. A few of us who made responses to the NSW Companion Animals Taskforce specifically requested that they make a study into the sources of unwanted dogs. I am hoping that the proposals to introduce more rigour into the chipping databases will help someone to do that one day - until that happens, all anyone has got is estimates which can swing either way depending on the point people are trying to make. DogsNSW did gather some figures to respond to the Companion Animals Taskforce Recommendations. If I recall correctly DogsNSW breeders registered about the equivalent of a third of the total numbers of dogs impounded each year in total. That is, all pure breed dogs registered, not just those who go on to be unwanted. That's why I think 10 per cent is too high, but I don't have better figures because we all need that study into where they are actually coming from. I take your point that it varies geographically, but unwanted registered pure breeds would be no-where near 10 per cent where I am - most of them are jack/mini foxie crosses, working breed crosses and pigging breed crosses.

I suspect I would have just let it go, but I suppose if you need the cash you find a way. :laugh:

My guess is you will need to push things along which is a shame. However, don't lose heart. The registries are there to register pups, not to sort out civil disputes. They will often (not always!) register the pups after considering convincing evidence (eg DNA) and the payment of a penalty by the registering breeder. Trickier when you are the puppy buyer waiting on someone else to get themselves moving to sort it tho'. DogsNSW can give you advice about your options. Do you know if you are the only one in this situation?

Constance Miller's "Gazehounds, the search for truth" is essential reading IMO. Dutch Salmon's "Gazehounds and coursing" is also essential reading, even if you have no active interest in field coursing. There are other sighthound compendium style books, and they are not bad, but these two would be my pick for the Sighthound family of dogs if I were trying to control my dog book acquisitions and looking for the biggest bang for my buck.

This is a good website and covers pictures of Tazis and other dogs on the periphery of the historic Saluki countries of origin. Which by the way, is still the subject of vast amounts of online argument ;) http://saluqi.net/

Is there a particular reason you are interested in greyhounds? Soul Companions Sighthound Rescue is looking for foster carers at the moment but that would involve being prepared to foster Afghans and Salukis, which are (usually) a little more challenging than greys.

According to FB Best in show 1 Standard Poodle 2 Border Collie 3 Maltese 4 Saluki

One of the FB people posting is a Hound judge so I'm thinking it might be one of those drop down list problems. Elkhounds come straight after Wolfhounds in the group.

Interesting backstory, thanks for digging that up. I'm guessing if she had a distorted perception of reality about her hoarding it's no surprise she misjudged being ill and alone in a pack of over 50 hybrids. Re monitoring, the difficulty is the needle in a haystack thing. There is someone in my breed in the US who is being monitored, and another in the UK - but if they take an overnight bus somewhere and set up with a different name in a far flung location it can be hard to track them. One thing tho', a decent conviction with a ban on owning animals or owning more than a small handful of animals should help to stop them once they are found starting over again.

I'm reading Pukka's Promise but I am having trouble getting into it to be honest. I was hoping for more science and fewer heartwarming stories because the subject really interests me from a practical perspective. Will try again next week.

I am going to give it a whirl next week as the names I have picked out are arabic, and fairly obscure arabic. Wish me luck, it sounds like I'll need it!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/kentucky-woman-apparently-devoured-wolf-dogs-article-1.1467385 The skull, jawbone and thigh bone of a missing Kentucky woman were all that remained after she was most likely devoured by dozens of her pet wolf-dogs, authorities suspect. Authorities found more than 50 of the canine hybrids roaming around Patricia Ritz's Fordsville property when they showed up for a welfare check, police said. "All that we recovered were the skull, the jawbone and femur," Ohio County Sheriff David Thompson told the Daily News. The canine hybrids were roaming all over Patricia Ritz's property — nearly all of them in need of veterinary care. NBC NEWS The canine hybrids were roaming all over Patricia Ritz's property — nearly all of them in need of veterinary care. "There are teeth in the jawbone so hopefully pretty soon we will be able to properly identify her. We are 99 % this is going to be who we think it is but we need to wait for a proper identification." Police went to the house after neighbors reported that they had not seen her for at least two weeks, he said. "She was very ill," Thompson said. "She had been receiving some medication from local pharmacy. I suspect she fell ill but that (the cause of death) is something we will never know." Some of the canines were caged. Others roamed freely. Authorities think the ravenous animals ate Patricia Ritz's remains. NBC NEWS Some of the canines were caged. Others roamed freely. Authorities think the ravenous animals ate Patricia Ritz's remains. Some of the canines were caged. Others ran free. Most were underfed. Several lay dead. It appeared that the animals had little access to food or water. "They were all really in need of vet care," Thompson said. Animal Control worker Tracey Ward says that Patricia Ritz likely wanted to save all of the wolf-dogs but without spaying or neutering, they kept multiplying. NBC NEWS Animal Control worker Tracey Ward says that Patricia Ritz likely wanted to save all of the wolf-dogs but without spaying or neutering, they kept multiplying. News of the death and leading theory that Ritz was eaten by her wolf-dogs was first reported by local NBC-affiliate WFIE. Animal Control worker Tracey Ward told the station that Ritz probably wanted to care for the wolf-dogs but everything got out of hand as they increased in number. "I think it was just one lady that really wanted to save them all," she said. "When you don't spay and neuter, they're going to breed. It's not going to be just one or two puppies. It's going to be seven, nine, 12." Animal Control rounded up the wolf-dogs for veterinarian care. They hope to give the animals new homes at animal sanctuaries, according to WFIE.

That's certainly part of it. I think other issues are: - Unnecessarily worrying conscientious companion puppy buyers who are not ever going to breed the dog and who may have a practice building vet who will suggest a whole range of worrying and unnecessary tests. Having been that puppy buyer myself 8 years ago and paying an absolute fortune (over $5K including meds) for what turned out to be an ordinary and harmless low grade heart murmur, I can see why breeders would err on the side of caution. In some ways the money wasn't the worst part, it was the huge emotional stress of it, seriously thinking my dog was going to be dead within 12 months. - Witch hunting by the breeder's competitors, especially of the "never mind the log in my eye, let's pick on the splinter in yours" kind. A minority of people are quite happy to play politics with health issues, even if the dog is a companion who has never been used or shown. Not every person or every breed is like this, but where you have even one or two people using dogs as political footballs it ensures everyone stays quiet. I think this is worse now that breed groups on FB mean that everyone has a much better look at everyone else's dogs and business. I have seen a few innocent puppy buyers say things on FB groups that I know will have people chattering behind their hands. The other tricky thing for the puppy buyer is that people like that can appear to a novice as if they are just concerned about health in the breed, when in fact health isn't the reason for their interventions at all. So the breeder keeps their cards close to their chest. That said, I think as soon as someone goes to use a dog, or they buy a dog with the specific intention of incorporating it in their breeding program, then situations like Mistiqview's just shouldn't arise. If someone is going to breed on with something, then it's very important that they have good information and micropthalmia is one of those things that should be on the table. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it would be to get a whole litter with no eyes and know that someone knew about the possibility and said nothing. I am grateful to people who have been the "bigger" person in my breed and been completely frank with me about what they know when I have made inquiries. Those people are the glue that holds a breed together and I don't repeat what they tell me because they've always been frank about it in the context of a serious discussion about using a line. And I feel the same way, if someone asks me to disclose everything I know just to satisfy their curiosity they can forget it. But where people have serious intentions to use the lines, then I tell what I know because it is very frustrating to have the whole "oh yeah, that has popped up before" discussion after the mating is done and the pups are on the ground.

May be partly due to fact that deaf pups are not usually culled these days No, I work at a vet and see people bringing in dogs they use for breeding and quite a few of those need to be tested for BAER in my opinion but people are just ignoring the fact and breeding anyway. How is that inconsistent with what dragonwoman wrote?

No that's really good actually. I think half the issue is that some people worry it will be a huge cull process (sort of like a foot and mouth breakout) and valuable individuals and lines will be completely lost. And I guess some of that comes from past actions like you mention - where elimination attempts have maybe gone overboard. I really, really, REALLY want to hear Dr Kate Meurs speak sometime. Someone in my breed pointed me to this conference abstract which points out that genetics is only one part of the puzzle for hearts and that even if you toss out everything that is known to be genetically suspect, you still don't fix the problem. Of course, balanced breeding requires some collective maturity on the part of the breed community. Inherited Cardiomyopathies: Kathryn Meurs, North Carolina State University Cardiomyopathies are diseases of the heart muscle. The two most common types are Dilated and Arrhythmogenic, which together occur second only to valvular disease in dogs. Arrhymogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy (ARVC) is common to Boxers and to a lesser extent, Bulldogs. The heart muscle contracts well but microscopically, many of the muscle cells die and are replaced with fat cells, leading to abnormal electrical conduction. Affected dogs have an abnormal heart beat that may cause them to faint or die suddenly. A genetic mutation has been found in a region of the genome involved in making a protein that sticks cardiac cells together. It seems to be inherited as an autosomal dominant; however, dogs with two copies of the mutation have more abnormal beats per day than with one copy. Usually. Actually, the mutation has about 72% penetrance, meaning that 72% of dogs with the gene will have disease, but 28% of dogs with the same gene will not. Dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) is most known in the Doberman Pinscher, but also occurs in many large breeds. However, it may be different kinds of DCM in different breeds. In humans, 24 different genetic mutations can cause DCM. In Dobes, the cardiac mitochondria, which is involved in cell metabolism, is abnormal. In at least some families of Dobes, dogs with a mutation in a mitochondrial gene develop DCM. The gene is an autosomal dominant. About 28% of Dobes with this gene develop DCM, suggesting that as with humans, there may be different genetic causes even within one breed. DCM in Great Danes is again a different form, appearing to be caused by a sex-linked gene. This again suggests that you can't generalize DCM genetic studies between breeds. You have to start fresh: characterize the disease in your breed; characterize familial patterns; and characterize molecular aspects of the disease. Realize that a gene test may not be as helpful as you hoped, especially in cases where the mutation has incomplete penetrance. Why do some dogs with the mutation show the disease and not others? Is it diet, daily activities, genetic background? And if you have an unaffected dog that has the mutation, how do you use that information to guide breeding decisions? Add to that the situation where you may have more than one mutation causing DCM in a breed, and you have another concern: Just because your dog "passes" the one available DNA test for DCM, it doesn't mean he may not carry a different gene for DCM. Meurs suggests dogs must still be phenotypically tested with Holter monitors and cardiac ultrasounds. She does not suggest wide-scale removal of dogs with the mutations, but balanced breeding to dogs not carrying the same mutation.

You can know that x line has issues but often there is no peer reviewed scientifically proven means to track it and prove it. So then it becomes a matter of self discipline. Plausible deniability is huge in some breeds. Edited to add - to ignore a genetic condition you have to know that it exists by way of testing or careful tracking by definition. I think it's going to be a popular sire thing a lot of the time and while I can think of "bad news" stories I can't think of one where the dog was tested or the complete history was known and then a whole community went ahead and used it anyway. At least, I hope there isn't one, once it's out there people tend to steer clear IME. I can think of situations, before the advent of testing or indeed, in some smaller breeds numerically that don't have genetic tests, where the signs point to something being wrong, but because it can't be proved, or because the signs arrive late in the dogs' lives (eg, beyond the period where they are usually used to pass it on) people have been a bit careless because of the plausible deniability I mention above.

Agree with this, and after seeing what happened recently with some friends who imported a desexed rescue dog I would always try and pre-clear any dog going to New Zealand if at all possible.

You have to post pics now you've said that!

I will PM you.

Did someone say "super cute time-wasters"?

I think it's fine to have preferences about contact as long as you are explicit about them. I say on my website that I'm very busy and prefer email contact, with a view to setting up a time to chat. I don't provide my phone number on the website. So there's no confusion. I also have a price range on my website.

On the subject of timing and numbers, I have never tried to "hang on" to bookings for companion homes. I breed infrequently and have had a few false starts over the last 3 years. There is no way I would expect a companion buyer to wait 3 years for me to get through a difficult patch with my program. So I often refer buyers to other breeders. This means that usually my list of bookings at any one time is small. This litter I have now, while I had people who wanted one of mine, I had to refer them off again, as I only had two and I'm running them both on. So I don't agree with the idea that you should have everything pre-sold before having a litter because apart from anything else, it's not really fair on the companion buyer. I do think that if you start to put pressure on your breed community by breeding more litters than anyone wants from you, then that is a problem. But the two things are not the same. Some breeders have a name and a ready market for what they supply (performance, high health/rearing standards, reputation and/or show). And some don't and don't let it slow them down - but that last group really is a minority of breeders. As for Christmas, bitches come in season anything from once every 6 months to once every couple of years. They tend to be as inconvenient as possible and I think someone who wants a pure bred enough to get one from a breeder shouldn't worry about the fact that the litter is ready at Christmas time. EFS