The Spotted Devil

Great job Kirty Hmmmm.....Stevie's foster status reminds me of Dizzy's ;)

That is incorrect. Estimates range from 10%-30% in the US that are deaf although it's not clear whether unilateral and bilateral dogs are included. The AKC standard allows for blue eyes whereas the ANKC standard does not. Blue eyes are associated with deafness. I expect the % of deaf Dalmatians to be lower in Australia. There is a lot of pressure on breeders to BAER test and a number have consistently good results over many generations. The breed clubs also advocate on behalf of members to vets to buy the equipment and offer the service at a decent price. ETA: Yes, members of breed clubs are not permitted to sell bilaterally deaf puppies.

Congratulations RS FHRP - sounds like you had a fun weekend! Norty Polo :laugh: Em is in season which has put a stop to our training for just a little. Previously she was doing some nice work on double marks so hopefully we can pick that up in another week!

Congratulations Kavik Lovely way to start the year!!!

How exciting!!! Hurry up RS ;)

I believe this has been ruled out along with a couple of other nasties.

:laugh: Last time I took my working Springer into Petstock they had a talking parrot at the counter. Em's eyes nearly fell out of her head at the easy access live game, especially after a weekend of retrieving trialling....I nearly felt obliged to pay them for a training session ;)

I am aware that this is common practice for feral cats as part of the Trap - Neuter - Release program in the US. 1/4 inch of the left ear tip is removed under under general anaesthetic during spay/neuter surgery and is done so to prevent feral cats that are part of a colony cared for by humans being targeted for trapping. Whether TNR is a successful program is another matter entirely. I am not aware that this is done for socialised cats and dogs.

*gremlins*

Thanks for your considered response - it's nice to discuss these things logically and respectfully We are all, at least, passionate :laugh: elevenoclockish - a couple of comments which I'm hoping you can contribute to. Structurally the biggest difference between show/working ESS is the shape. Show dogs are square (ish) and working dogs are longer than they are tall. I suspect this accounts for differences in movement especially when they are flat out running (think of how a fox covers the ground). I often wonder why the difference occurred - certainly field trials may have required a quicker dog but perhaps also the nature of the cover has changed as a result of human intervention and the working ESS evolved to suit the environment. Any other ideas welcome. I know a number of working ESS breeders who are passionate about good structure, by the way. As I said earlier the excess skin and longer ears in show ESS is not my preference - interestingly the standard is very vague on both these features. I can't see any benefit in them myself but would be interested in your views.

I'm sorry to harp on about the Clumber but I am trying to understand....haw refers to the 3rd eyelid or nictitating membrane NOT the conjunctiva which is exposed when the excess skin causes the eye to form a "v" shape which I suspect is what the vet picked up. Allowable in the standard and having read the extension I don't think the justification is sufficient. Nor do I think heavy ears and loose skin allow the dog to scent better. Correlation does not equal causation. Perhaps I am wrong and if there is evidence please point me in the right direction. I am open to ideas :) I do agree that the process was deeply flawed.

elevenoclockish - but I agree with you. There are some show line dogs who can work and some working line dogs I wouldn't want to live with. Everyone's idea of what is "fit for function" is different depending on what the dog's role is, thus a 'test' doesn't really tell us anything. Only that the dog can do that test - maybe it tells us more about how good the trainer is! Heck, I taught my Dalmatian to retrieve, tug and swim (kinda ;) ) and he would rather walk on hot coals than do any of those things. I haven't ventured into field trials yet but a Springer needs to quarter, flush, hunt and retrieve. A gundog with game makes for a stunning photo but there is so much more. Thank you for the links. I don't doubt there are plenty of other breeders out there doing the right thing by their dogs. Personally I prefer my dog with shorter ears, firm skin around the head (tight around the eye) and less feathering. But that is me - a personal choice for the conditions my dog trains and trials in. I never have to clean, pluck or dry ears no matter how much water work we do. My youngster is a very intense little worker but walk in the front door or put her in the back of the car and she relaxes and sleeps, even with gunfire indicating another dog is working. Her breeder calls her Jeckyll and Hyde. I think that is a wonderful trait to preserve. As I've said many times, I don't have a problem with split show/working lines. One size does not fit all.

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I don't know that an informal experiment will mean you don't need animal ethics approval. That aside, running even the simplest of behavioural experiments with reliable results is not easy, takes considerable prior knowledge and also requires a good understanding of how to use statistics. In my opinion it's a waste of resources if the work won't be peer reviewed and published. If you are really keen to do something like this I would contact a University with a good reputation and discuss the possibilities - they may have a post-grad student that is interested. It is not easy to find kennels willing to assist so it might be a nice collaboration.

Thanks for the info FHRP and RV - much appreciated. Hey Kavik, glad you enjoyed it :D They are very, very funny little things and, as you say, move quite differently to the show line dogs. Em is back in season and silly hyper so I've just booted her into the chook yard (sans chooks ;) ). She is flying up and down the hill, quartering and hunting - just doing what comes naturally. But you also need to be able to harness the natural behaviour and that also seems to vary amongst the different lines.

It will make you either swear off them for life or want a dozen of them :laugh:

RV - I do like that idea. However, I see much the much heavier boned Brittany competing in Vic retrieving trials - very tough, good workers, are proven hunting dogs but are different to what I am used to.

If there is a need in potential homes for working ability, then the working ability will remain. There is no need to regulate for it.However, if as you imagine it eventuated that a breeder group in Australia UK or USA (or any other country which feels the need to regulate everything), decided working ability/integrity was lacking, then such breeder groups could obtain dogs with working ability/integrity from the dogs' countries of origin. It is no problem. :) I agree with you lilli. I think we also need to welcome with open arms the novice handlers who want to try their hand at a dog sport - even if their dogs are never going to be champions in the sport. I did indeed! There was a display with Labs and Goldens and another with working Springers It's a really tough one. The question is how much is instinct and how much is good training? In America the retrieving scene is dominated by professional trainers - I have no doubt that changes the breed (predominantly field Labs). The retrieving ability test covers the basic retrieve and dealing with cover/water but I wouldn't be purchasing a pup based on parents having those titles. I have also seen titled dogs of various breeds in various disciplines that don't excite me. The overall package is so important. Then you have the issue of dummies vs game. The former does not demonstrate a soft mouth - something I am told has not been selected for in the show ESS which is not unsurprising. I toss dummies into heavy cover for Em to hunt out (like the Springers in the video) - it is an interesting combination of instinct, confidence, maturity and training. On top of all that, both my dogs come from very experienced breeders who have been in the game for a long time. They don't have the time or energy to title their dogs now but that doesn't preclude them from breeding good dogs. One way that I can thank them for entrusting me with one of their pups is to demonstrate what they are capable of.

Not to mention missing the fall of the game! I teach 3 different styles of heeling for obedience, retrieving and agility.

perrin - a local store stocks it but I found them through the distributor. I cannot recall and it's late so I may well forget to check. Can you PM me if I don't respond? Multiple times if necessary

Ah Pattycake - is Bella your first field ESS? Em is my first and I am addicted to the little rascals! Saff - I haven't seen enough Dal responses to horses to comment but the first time my Springer saw a gun she nearly fainted with excitement. It was the most incredible thing I have ever seen - I had just got my gun license, was out training with a friend (on dummies), picked up the gun (with blanks) and all her self control just vanished. I don't get to train with a gun much but by our second retrieving trial she was following the line of the gun like an old pro - and I certainly didn't train that as my gun handling skills (according to my last judge) are "crap" :laugh:

I suspect so, Kavik. Some real diehards think that only hunting is a test for breed function because retrieving/field trials are too stylised. I'm not sure that we need to test for breed function. We all have our different passions, be it pet owner, breeder, hunter, competitor or any combination of those. We will choose the dogs we wish to breed and to own and to train. Personally I love the variety and have no problem seeing someone with a show line dog (when there is a strong split) compete in any sport as long as they are physically able. I probably have more of an issue with the training methods some people employ! I don't expect everyone to go weak at the knees when Em tackles cover and water, taking a perfectly straight line and using her eyes and nose to pick up the game - last time she did that at a trial I had tears of joy in my eyes as she swam all the way back to me to deliver the game. The tears were streaming down my face by the time we made it back to the start peg The judge didn't let me live that one down for the rest of the day but he really did understand how much it meant to me. How do you ensure breeds are at least fit? I'm not sure any of us have the solution but I have no doubt it lies in education - our understanding of dog behaviour and training is constantly evolving and I suspect our evaluation of breeding, breed standards and function will continue to evolve. Sometimes it will be for the better, sometimes for the worse. I do believe the standards need to evolve. I have been reading the extension to the Clumber standard - whoever wrote it is incredibly knowledgable about the breed but there are a few points that I think are simply folk lore. Of course, I am a scientist so I will critique everything with that training in the back of my mind. And don't think for one minute I do not value what such people have brought to the various breeds. Just like the published science on behaviour and welfare that has gone before me, I damn well hope someone smarter than me questions and improves upon whatever I achieve. As a side note, Encyclopaedia Britanica has just gone to print for the last time. A gentleman with a copy from around 100 years ago commented on how much he loves to read it as so much of it is just plain wrong - it shows just how far we have come, particularly in terms of medical knowledge. Oh, and the entry on Adolf Hitler talked about what a great guy he was. Incredible to contemplate. One important point to note is that controlled breeding is a relatively recent phenomenon. A number of breeds that we assume are 'ancient' (e.g. Pharaoh hound) certainly reflect an ancient form but are actually quite modern genetically. This has only come to light in the last 10 years with the mapping of the dog genome. Quite possibly this applies to other so-called 'ancient' breeds. Dogs that are similar don't necessarily share a genetic history either (e.g. Xolo & Chinese crested) - even groups designated by the ANKC have plenty of genetic crossovers. Whilst there is no perfect dog at least they come a hell of a lot closer than us silly, interfering humans ;) Sorry for the ramble - complex question that I'm not sure I've answered to my own satisfaction. Long week however, so I will leave it there for now :)

From what we understand, they were "carriage dogs". They would trot for many miles either next to or between the horse/s and carriage, guarding the carriage and sleeping in the stables with the horses at night. Thus they aren't known for their biddability as they didn't associate with people a lot. In the USA (and possibly UK?) they have carriage trials - the Dalmatian should be calm around horses and they also test their ability to retrieve a "dropped" whip amongst other things. All Dalmatians should be able to do an Endurance Test in their sleep - it's something I will do with Ziggy now that I (finally) have a bike. I also need to fit it around training/competing in obedience and agility with him plus 3 sports with my Springer. I imagine some would expect a Dalmatian to be struck off the ANKC for passing an obedience test :laugh: With the ESS, the horse rabbit has already bolted. The breed split many years ago. It wasn't unusual for an ESS to spend one day in the field and the next in the show ring but the showies didn't like what it did to the coat (I don't blame them :laugh:) and the breed diverged. The show and working Springers of today are very, very different. Working ESS are slightly longer than tall, have shorter ears and much less feathering. They tend to work like they are possessed by the devil - I have to be very quick on my feet to keep up with her mental and physical speed. The difficulty with gun dogs is that training and competing in field and retrieving trials takes a huge commitment - long drives even to train, camping rough is common, you need a gun license (not in WA), access to game, training partners etc. Instinct is really important but so is being a good trainer - it's complicated by distance and "factors" - water, cover, terrain etc. Whilst I think the retrieving ability tests are a wonderful start for someone interested in retrieving they don't go close to measuring breed function. PLUS I can't imagine an average pet owner wanting a little buzz box like mine that is so incredibly birdy - whilst she is a beautiful house dog, channelling all that instinct into something constructive is not a task for the faint hearted. I have no problem with the working/show split. Dogs have evolved alongside humans for the past 100,000 years. 100-200 years of controlled breeding by humans should not restrict our ideas of breed purpose. More importantly I want to see sound dogs that are physically and temperamentally suited to their environment, no matter what the purpose. No dog is perfect in all situations - even within Em's relatives are dogs better suited to hunting, field trials, retrieving, scent work or active pets. I spend hours talking pedigrees, working style/ability and structure with my Em's breeder. Wonderful stuff :) ETA: This is Em training at 7 months old. Her energy and enthusiasm has gone through the roof since then but she has learnt a little more self control ;)

Mr TSD always enjoys a bit of toilet humour and loves watching dogs do agility. So for him the combination in amongst the dignity and pageantry that is Crufts was pure gold :D

ns_c - that's exactly what I'm saying - educate yourself and make your decisions based on that. No one is going to agree on everything. I am a scientist so I might come to my conclusions based on different decisions. I was asked what I feed my Dally - I have repeatedly responded to this question in this and the Dally thread and given my reasons why. I have found a few sites that rate chicken lower in purine than red meat (= lamb and beef). Probably lamb isn't as high as beef but I can't find anything definitive on it. As I said, I don't like the Brewers Yeast in Blackhawk either. Some people feed red meat and a little organ meat as well and never have a problem. I'm simply not prepared to take that risk when I can find an alternative. It's no guarantee, even then, that a dog won't get stones. As for feeding mince - personally I just don't see the point when compared with a whole meaty chicken carcass - interesting for the dog, cleans the teeth and a nice balance of meat and bone - but if you want to feed mince that's fine. I'm only saying what I do and why as requested by the OP. ETA: My point extends to BARF feeding. I wouldn't feed the BARF patties based on the ingredients list you posted but if they work for you and your dog, that's ok too. "Chicken, finely ground chicken bone, beef liver, whole egg, cultured kefir, seasonal vegetables selected from broccoli, celery, spinach, carrot, ground flax seed, bok choy, dried alfalfa leaf powder, beef kidney, beef heart, unbleached beef tripe, seasonal fruit selected from apple, pear, grapefruit, orange, dried kelp powder, garlic, capsicum."