Steve

cascade is close - 25%.

I have to agree that I am not a bb supporter. I recently had a AB stay with me for a few days, she was built a lot like a bb and it was 27 and she was stressed. I kept thinking she was going to die. She just laid on the cold tiles all day. Breeding a dog like that, with those health problems... definitely not my idea of positive evolution of dog breeding. I'm not a huge fan of the brachy dogs though. An AB. Do you mean and Australasian Bandogge? They are a crossbreed. Nothing to do with a British Bulldog in my opinion. And nothing to do with positive evolution of dog breeding. She was built very much like the bbs I see today. I don't agree with the bbs conformation. So what if she was built very much like the Bulldogs you see today! She was a CROSSBREED. I feel for you, I really do. It doesn't matter what the British Bulldog folk do, or how well they do it, they are going to be tarred with the same brush. If McGreevy has his way, the medical history of that dog would be lumped in with your pedigree dogs and will be used to drive the final nail in the coffin. Yep

Another one with words of wisdom. Please Steve, Tell us something we dont already know. You really do sound like a broken record. Who is pussy footing around? Who is denying anything? So breeding a dog which is suffering is far more crueler than a puppy farmer? No one who wants to preserve a breed and who has the best interests of the breed in mind wants to breed dogs that are suffering. One bad onion taints a whole crop in your opinion doesnt it. But there are puppy farmers out there. Are some of these people have even been members of the "group" you belong to. Was wondering when you were going to offer this thread, experiences of your vast knowledge of the world of dogs. And as usual go after me personally dont debate the issue - beat up anyone who might think a little differently and has the gall to say so. Though I notice you have already admitted some get it wrong and thats O.K. Get it right I didnt say one bad onion taints the whole crop ,I didn't think it and I didn't mean that but reality check some breeds are in big trouble and more than one breeder in those breeds have contributed to that and the current method of selection and "we're working on it" beating hell out of anyone daring to consider selecting differently for a minute is holding back quicker solutions. By the way I do more to promote purebred breeders,what they do and their dogs than most and at the end of the day I want all of the breeds we have to prosper, expect to live long healthy lives and be around forever. That doesn't mean I cant see that some get it wrong and its time to pull the finger out or loose the rights we have because some have lost sight of what is best for the dogs in their quest for one goal or another and their inability to see or consider other potential alternatives to make it better quicker is screaming out to those who are watching. In my opinion breeding dogs in rotten conditions affects those dogs only - and I didn't say it was a good thing to breed dogs for profit in rotten conditions or that it wasn't cruel but in my opinion deliberately breeding dogs which a breeder [notice I didn't say all breeders or any breeders in particular] knows has a fair chance at a poor quality of life,lack of longevity generation after generation is more cruel. Im more than happy to debate the issue but if you need to make it personal and play the man and not the ball Im not interested in playing - thanks anyway.

Its not the leaves its the fruit .I had a great conversation with this professor about 5 years ago and apparently what ever it is it is still active in anything raspberry including jams etc .they tested massive amounts of raspberries from heaps of different farms and at that stage hadnt identified what the property was but it wasnt affected by climate or soils - growing conditions etc raspberries do heaps of other things too - heaps of work on them re cancer and immune system stuff if you get a chance to look it up but a lot of that work gives credit to the ellagic acid in them.- You can buy that in pill form but its not the same as what we are talking about here because ellagic acid is found in other fruits but they dont do what raspberries do for giardia - bali belly etc.

Deliberately breeding dogs which are at risk of suffering due to the way they look or because of a high likelihood of disease is cruelty - far greater cruelty in my opinion than puppy farming and the public can see that a mile away . It takes lots of time to fix it because the methods of breeding purebred dogs and how they are tested as being good examples of the breed is stuck in the last millenium. Some breeds were written about over 30 years ago with red lights flashing and considering dogs reproduce much faster than humans that's up to 30 generations of "we're working on it " Pussy foot around it deny it all you want beat up anyone who says something perceived to be against purebreds but its a plain as the nose on their faces and unless something real happens to correct it in some breeds that shows results pretty quickly with less dogs suffering someone is going to give us no choice.

I use it but Ive always got tons of frozen raspberries in the freezer .

There has been a lot of research done on this via charles sturt uni and the Australian sports teams and the australian armed forces take raspberry cordial away with them to prevent giardia - and its given to kids in childrens hospitals for tummy bugs but there are only a couple on the market which do the job unless you make it yourself. One is Cottees but there appears to be two cottess you need the one which has at least 35% raspberries the other is a juice not a cordial but whether you can buy the real McCoy off a supermarket shelf is a big ask. You need to look to be sure it actually has raspberries in it. Most just have raspberry colour and flavour. http://baliforfamilies.com/bali_belly_and_raspberry_cordial.htm

That's kinda sexist. No its not. Its feminist, if anything I might agree if you had said selected by males rather than handled by males. One is nature the other nurture.

Agreed.

Actually thats probably an important point - of course anyone can start any club and it may be people who have one breed in common but within the purebred dog world a breed club is affiliated with the ANKC and therefore has some things they need to comply with which a club wouldn't if it were established with a similar but different primary goal.

Agreed.

Yes and as each club is incorporated they can set their own rules rather than go by the model rules in each state. Look there is no doubt what ever that in some clubs there are major power plays and for me it was horrible and I would never consider joining a breed club again. Many would feel that being a member bought them under more notice and that if there were a power play or vindictiveness, competition etc going on being a member made them more vulnerable. But . None of this is new and its really obvious if you know where to look and regardless of what someone here might tell you I would be very surprised if one single breed didnt have at least some element of it with or without a club but it does seem to be amplified in some clubs. Its been going on forever and you see it very clearly right from the base of any breed in development. Without a breed club the breed is in my opinion disadvantaged - who is charged with promoting the breed, who is watching out for patterns of genetic issues, temperament issues a growing tendency to breeding to extremes, who communicates and advocates for the breed to the registry etc - that's of course assuming they do what the general purpose of them existing is. My point is if this particular issue alone were responsible for numerous breed clubs folding it would have happened long ago though I guess you could argue the consequences now of someone having the RSPCA hound you or setting film makers on you in the middle of the night, social media etc that the consequences of the bullying may be worse. I believe its about dropping numbers of breeders, and purebred puppies being bred which of course the breed clubs have been complicit in but the first step of addressing it has to be get more in and more bred in my opinion.

With 5 kids I wouldn't touch a pound dog with a barge pole unless it came through a reputable rescue where its lived in someone's home and has been tested and assessed over a fair period and even then I personally would only bring in a pup .One pup for at least a year then consider a second. Some people can live with any dog but Ive got 8 kids and I know I cant - dont want to . I want a clean slate which can learn my house rules and bond with my kids and them with it as a baby and grow old with me. As a breeder I will never sell 2 pups at the same time to the same family. I would wait to get your pup then if you still feel the same in a year consider a second.

http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/stories/PDFS/Part_10_Affiliates.pdf (b) So long as the Club is an Affiliate of Dogs NSW, every member whether a member of Dogs NSW or not, shall be deemed to have agreed with Dogs NSW to be bound by the Rules and Regulations of Dogs NSW for the time being in force and at all times to submit to and carry out every determination, finding, decision, requirement or direction of Dogs NSW so far as the same shall relate to him; and an undertaking in writing signed by its President and Secretary that upon its admission as affiliate it will annually thereafter furnish to Dogs NSW a detailed statement setting out its contribution towards the furthering of the promotion of pure bred dogs, a copy of any other report of its activities submitted to its annual meeting together with a certificate that in the case of a specialist club, it has at least fifteen (15) financial members resident within the State, each of whom is a member of Dogs NSW and is the owner of a specimen of the breed in respect of which the club is aspecialist club, in the case of an all breeds or general dog club, at least thirty (30) financial members (or such other number as may have been determined by the Board of Directors); 10/03 must conduct a regonised show during the 12 month period next following its admission as an Affiliate; (10/97), (1/10) (b) where applicable, must ensure that the first Championship Show conducted by it, after affiliation is granted, is observed by a Show Representative appointed by the Board as per Regulations Part II, Section 2, Regulation 2.9 (in addition to the Show Representative required to be appointed by the Show Committee pursuant to Regulations Part II, Section 2, Regulation 2.8). (10/97), (1/10) No less frequently than once every calender year, an Affiliate shall conduct, or cause to be conducted, a lecture on the Breed Standard applicable to that Affiliate ('the Annual Lecture'). © The Annual Lecture shall: (i) be open to all members and to members of the public; (ii) be designed to provide informative and educative material for the benefit of those attending; (iii) include such informative and educative material as the Board of Directors may from time to time require. (d) An Affiliate shall give Dogs NSW. no less than six (6) months notice in writing of the date, venue and speaker(s) at the Annual Lecture for publication in the Journal. And http://dogsnsw.org.au/images/stories/PDFS/Part_10_Affiliates.pdf CLUBS AND THEIR PURPOSES It has become apparent that there are an increasing number of disputes within Clubs. In the main these disputes involve breed Clubs and can also involve newly affiliated Clubs, and in all cases the disputes detract from the Club’s ability to fulfil the purposes for which it was formed, and the purpose for which it was affiliated with Dogs NSW. In most cases the disputes are generated by or exacerbated by petty personality clashes that often border on misconduct under Dogs NSW Rules and Regulations. Another factor that contributes significantly to the disputes is Club mismanagement. This mismanagement can arise from lack of knowledge; inability or unwillingness to learn; power plays; adherence to ingrained incorrect methods, ideas and procedures; on committee for the wrong reasons, e.g. kudos instead of commitment to the Club; and inability to cope with the rigours of the task.

I would pay the money then sort out what can be done to get it back.

Did I miss something? I thought the discussion was why are breed clubs folding? All I was meaning was the altered mindset and goals of todays members and breeders is what is eliminating not only future breeders but the very breeds they love. change the culture, save the breed. Although you wont see me volanteering to try any more, sadly I think its past the save timeline. Can hope for a miricale of course. but no Im not advocating banning breed clubs. just advocating for a miracal or mesiah that might wake them up to whats really happening O.K. Thats good I understood this post but you had me wondering what you were getting at earlier.

Asal I would agree that most complaints come from other breeders but thats across the board .If you ban breed clubs it will still happen and many complaints come from those who are not in a breed club about those who are. Personally it makes no difference to me whether they all fall down or not but is there really a need to chase anyone who may be considering giving it a go off with a big wicked stick.?

No thats not what I think and if anyone has an interest in a breed and wants to get involved in my opinion that would be nothing but a good thing.i know Im more likely to get truthful knowledge on health from a pet owner than I am from many breeders but because of the focus on showing and breeding it takes a lot to pull that together and give average pet owners enough reason to be members or at least to be members who are working at the show /breeding side of it . Having 100 pet owners and 2 showies wouldnt really do what the club was originally intended for . It would be a nice club with everyone owning a dog of a particular breed but for it to be about shows and registrations etc that takes those involved in those things to function.

Let's get a bit more real here asal... puppy farmers don't give a toss whether their "stock" has mains registered papers or not - just that they are capable of pumping out lots of cute puppies for the buying public. Breeders can let their pups go out on limit register with an option to upgrade to mains if said pup shows the promise of showing or being good for breeding. If you really want to make 100% sure that any of the pups sold as pets never breed, you have to desex them before they go out - that's the ONLY way to ensure they are never bred from. But desexing young can have it's own set of risks, yes? T. All true but no one can breed a dog and have their puppies registered on the ANKC pedigree system and show any of those puppies if the dog isnt main registered .So I think the point is that lots of puppies may still be bred but not registered purebred ones. - which are the ones which would be under the whole breed club breed club member umbrella.

Me either. I want my breed clubs to focus on the breed and nothing else. Not on all pure breeds, not on all dogs, just their own responsibilities, the breed community, the breed as a whole and any individual of the breed that needs help, breed health, history and expertise, a voice for the breed, a public face for the breed and an organiser of breed events. Done well, that is a great deal. Yep. So why does intolerance to anything else have to be made a condition of membership? Its been made a condition of membership that they don't tolerate diversity.Then you ask for that within the breed clubs. A condition of membership for a breed club? Rubbish. If you want acceptance for deciding on your own what is wrong and how to fix it without approvals and outside of the system by cross breeding or breeding with non pedigreed dogs its simple join another club.

Yeah I know Sheridan and because much of what is required and necessary comes from over seas /country or origin etc clearly they can survive without one but the breeds have a better chance of getting promoted and more getting done in regards to health etc if they have one. Historically there never was much desire to attract an average pet owner because it really is about showing and pedigrees - some have gone this way and embraced the pet owner and that makes sense but it will always probably be a primary focus on what their origin was all about. Having average pet owners involved may mean greater numbers but doesn't necessarily equate to those things that need to be addressed being taken care of effectively because of the difference in focus.

If a registry doesn't have a breed club to liaise with on what is to be mandatory/ recommended testing, changes to breed standard interpretations registration requirements etc then their ability to keep up with what is needed and required is non existent. With no breed club who is watching out for genetic issues that may show up or may need to be addressed etc? Think it through the registry cant just take notice of what everyone who has an idea or belief or interest has to say - there has to be some kind of protocol and system or the registry would blow up and be beaten by breed politics and the like. If you want to see change and promotion and advocacy of a breed the only place thats ever going to come from is the breed clubs .The registry is there to promote the concept of pedigreed dogs in general not to go out and work their heart out for each individual breed - it makes no sense to ask that of them. Being an active member of a breed club is good for some and not good for others but the only way we can get enough that its good for is to have more involved in the breed in the first place and numbers are dropping - that is numbers of breeders and numbers of puppies being bred and therefore new faces for the future.

Yes and there will be people in and out cleaning and checking on them too. Its just another way to push their agenda. Even though Im against animals in pet shops Im even more against this kind of hype and beat up. if the RSPCA arent interested there is a reason for that because believe me they would get them if they could.

Its all about what you need from them. Traditionally Maremma would go up into the mountains and guard the sheep sometimes alone sometimes with the shephard but they were also expected to behave themselves and have manners when they came down the mountain and sleep near the house. Ive bred a couple of champs which have been excellent at the job they do. Worked in the paddock all week and come out and seem to enjoy the show scene on week ends and enjoyed human approaches and company . As soon as they get home they go back with the goats.I think if the goats had gone to the show with them that the reaction would have been different as anyone approaching would be seen as a potential threat to the goats on or off the property but with nothing to guard there's nothing to guard. still they would bark not bite. To date the bulk of those showing them in Australia have also worked them so selection has been mainly about how they work as well as how they look and I wouldn't like to see that change and I think its changing. Personally I think its a lesser accomplishment if the dog wins a conformation championship but doesn't work too and whilst the standard is important to me in my breeding program no point for me having one thats looking the part but cant work well. Here in their own paddock with their sheep or chickens there is no off and I don't expect an off from them and they yell at anyone approaching but when I take them off the property or away from what they guard they are different dogs and in the main docile. They are not supposed to be aggressive - yelling at you to keep away from the gate is different to jumping the fence and ripping your arms off even though they can and Id never expect that from a Maremma.

If they didn't believe pedigrees were THE only ethical and responsible choice then why would they be interested in being a member of a breed club? Why would you want anyone who didnt think that being anywhere near something thats set up to protect that? Why would they care what anyone else looking outside of their back yards think and you're talking about general attitudes to new breed development, cross breeding, closed stud books, etc which is a totally different issue to what the purpose of a breed club is. Why would a rugby player want to work to make an AFL club successful? why would the AFL club want them if they were only there to get everyone to play their game?