Steve

Oh, damn. Though I completely understand the rationale for that. I'm guessing then that being in a foster home require that the person looking after the dog is a fosterer on that rescues books? Because Geoffrey's practically in a foster home right now, just.. not with an official rescue.. ? I would guess so. I keep meaning to ask them but I figure they would be so busy just getting the new site up and running. It will make it hard for me as I am a small rescue and sometimes there are dogs that I can help re-home but I don't have room or funds to bring them into my rescue. Ams you know you can list your dogs on the MDBA website free of charge? There is also an option of 4 weeks free insurance now with every dog that is placed with no obligation to buy any further insurance if you want to use it.

Just going door to door in any shire in any street would pay someone's wages and vehicle costs every day. They would either pick up fines or rego fees and at what cost is BSL and the life of a child or someone's pet due to owners who dont keep their dog's in secure yards ? The fees for life time registration in NSW goes to councils to enforce the laws - I pay money for all of my dogs to give them money to ensure other people do the same - it was the platform they used to bring it in and rather than driving around shopping centre car parks and fining people who over stay their spot for five minutes theycould take some of that and do what they promised to do. They have to attend anyway for barking dogs etc and they have to pick the dogs up and take em to the pound what's the differeence in infrastructure and admin to take it home and counsel the owner the first offence? Its the same person, the same vehicle, the same administration. Surely allocating council land which is used only for a handful of people who want to run their dog's off leash , supplying poo bags because people dont want to have to carry them , ensuring everyone plays by the rules and fining those who dont requires more than simply ensuring they are more proactive and everyone is safe to walk their kids and their dogs around the steets? A lot of councils DO take dogs home first go without impounding. I certainly do, and If I can't find the owners I drop them at the local vets where they can stay for up to three days before they have to go to the pound. Most go home before that point. I know my Council is not the only one to do that. But yes; there are still plenty (especially rural) tHat don't. But when you take them home do you work with the owner to see why it happened and how to prevent it happening again? Yep - check out the fenceline, discuss exercise/training. If they don't know how he's getting out I suggest they stand out the front and call him to see if he 'shows' them by escaping to get to them. Majority of the time it's a one-off accident of a child or tradie leaving the gate open though, as opposed to an escape artist dog. If someone knows who Melzawelza really is then please nominate her so I can tell her in person how fantastic I thnk she is www.mdbaawards.net.au

Yes I hear you but when you say "I would offer their money back" thats open to interpretation and anyone having it said to them doesnt know about you maybe taking into account the reason they are not wanting it or your situation, how long they have had the dog etc I am warning you that I have seen this go belly up. Better to say I will take the dog back or help you to find it a new home and then when the time comes if its fair offer a refund etc rather than say anything they can assume will lock you into it all. At the end of the day you wouldnt have to do what they think you promised anyway but puppy buyers get ticked off and say some pretty bad stuff about breeders, cause some stress when they think their breeder is going back on what they thik they guaranteed.

Just going door to door in any shire in any street would pay someone's wages and vehicle costs every day. They would either pick up fines or rego fees and at what cost is BSL and the life of a child or someone's pet due to owners who dont keep their dog's in secure yards ? The fees for life time registration in NSW goes to councils to enforce the laws - I pay money for all of my dogs to give them money to ensure other people do the same - it was the platform they used to bring it in and rather than driving around shopping centre car parks and fining people who over stay their spot for five minutes theycould take some of that and do what they promised to do. They have to attend anyway for barking dogs etc and they have to pick the dogs up and take em to the pound what's the differeence in infrastructure and admin to take it home and counsel the owner the first offence? Its the same person, the same vehicle, the same administration. Surely allocating council land which is used only for a handful of people who want to run their dog's off leash , supplying poo bags because people dont want to have to carry them , ensuring everyone plays by the rules and fining those who dont requires more than simply ensuring they are more proactive and everyone is safe to walk their kids and their dogs around the steets? A lot of councils DO take dogs home first go without impounding. I certainly do, and If I can't find the owners I drop them at the local vets where they can stay for up to three days before they have to go to the pound. Most go home before that point. I know my Council is not the only one to do that. But yes; there are still plenty (especially rural) tHat don't. But when you take them home do you work with the owner to see why it happened and how to prevent it happening again?

If you are offering a guarantee that if they no longer want the dog that you will buy it back you had better be clear about how much you wil pay for the dog and hope you have the money and space when the time comes for the next 15 or so years. I had one once who came to me and wanted me to buy back the dog after 18 months for $500 more than she paid for it as she hadnt desexed it [ male] and she felt that she should be compensated for the vaccinations, and care she had provided for it as it had grown. She felt its value had increased .I found her two wonderful homes for him but each only offered a much less price than she paid me - she said no and if I didnt pay the extra money the dog would be put down. Long story short my hubby told me if I did pay the extra he would divorce me and right at the death knock the grandmother came good and gave her the money including the extra and took the dog to her house so the kids could still see it and love it . Dont assume that people understand what you are thinking - they dont and if you are not clear they can come back and say you promised them full refund at any age and that you would pay to get it home regardless of what you may be able to get when you re home it because that is what they assumed you meant .

Just going door to door in any shire in any street would pay someone's wages and vehicle costs every day. They would either pick up fines or rego fees and at what cost is BSL and the life of a child or someone's pet due to owners who dont keep their dog's in secure yards ? The fees for life time registration in NSW goes to councils to enforce the laws - I pay money for all of my dogs to give them money to ensure other people do the same - it was the platform they used to bring it in and rather than driving around shopping centre car parks and fining people who over stay their spot for five minutes theycould take some of that and do what they promised to do. They have to attend anyway for barking dogs etc and they have to pick the dogs up and take em to the pound what's the differeence in infrastructure and admin to take it home and counsel the owner the first offence? Its the same person, the same vehicle, the same administration. Surely allocating council land which is used only for a handful of people who want to run their dog's off leash , supplying poo bags because people dont want to have to carry them , ensuring everyone plays by the rules and fining those who dont requires more than simply ensuring they are more proactive and everyone is safe to walk their kids and their dogs around the steets?

Council cant advertise the local obedience club because it creates problems with accusations of drumming up business for one business in their town - they can refer the owners to training but they cant tell them who the trainers are or similar because if they miss one they are the poo.

Well done!

Yes but its not just about the "show quality" back then we had more choices because if you had more than average you had somewhere to go and you could be afford to be more selective - you were well respected and seen as an expert now if you have more than 2 you're a puppy farmer or a hoarder or the council come gunning for you. Lots of things impacting including how vets and breeders are being educated and social issues, built up suburbs, council and state laws and especially animal rights propaganda.

Once upon a time if a dogs hips weren't good enough to support them during mating dogs didn't get mated - now we just do AI's

73% higher incidfence of HD in male dogs desexed before 12 months too.

8 weeks domestically.ANKC says none overseas until 12 weeks but if you sell the pup and the new owner decides to fly it at 8 weeks its not you're bung.

Ive spoken about this before but will again. About a year ago I sent a Maremma pup home to a lady who I worked with for 7 weeks between when she made her enquiry to home time to be as sure as I could be that the pup was going to a great home and she understood the breed. It felt good and I was confident the pup was going to the right place - but then the wild card turned up after the pup went home - the owner's partner. An idiot. He knew all about puppies because once he went to Afri bloody ca and helped raise a litter of cougar cubs and all of his mates had dogs. if I had known about the partner before she got the dog she wouldnt have got the dog. Puppy goes home at 8 weeks and two weeks later I get a phone call from the partner there is something wrong with the puppy's joints .They had taken the pup to an off leash dog park where it had played and beed skittled several times by a pair of adult cattle dogs and it limped for a day or two - then after it stopped limping it still couldnt get up on the couch.It also muct have some kind of brain damage because it wouldnt chase a ball. I explained the breed, told him this was inthe notes his partner had recieved way before the pup got home and the dog was unlikely to ever chase a ball that at this age isnt expected to be able to jump up 30cm to get up on the couch .He said he had mates with dogs this size - labs who could get up and he knows dogs and the vet agrees. Because the vet believed it was a large breed AND PUREBRED it probably had genetic bone or joint issues and its better to have a better look now and PUT THE PUP DOWN if it couldnt be fixed before it got much older. The pup was scheduled in for ALL OF ITS JOINTS to be Xrayed the following week.I said I wasnt worried that I thought the vet was wrong and to get a second opinion - vet told him he couldnt get a valid second opinion without the Xrays first. So the pup had all of its bones and joints Xrayed and the pup was cleared as perfect. So at least if ever in the next 15 years it does get something wrong Im in the clear I guess. Maybe not. The insurance which I put on the dog as it was leaving covered it but if the cattle dogs had done any lasting damage when they bowled the dog over whilst wrestling, if it had done something falling off the couch or the bed , if someone had kicked it or dropped it no doubt about it the breeder would have been the bad guy and breeding with defective dogs!

Well personally I think forget about everything else until they up the education and promotion of what being a responsible dog owner entails and enforce the laws. Make sure every person in the shire who has a dog has them chipped, registered and that they are keeping them in a secure area suitable for their breed and size, that they know they cant walk them off lead without consequences unless they are in certain approved areas . If they want to then provide off leash parks, poo bags and bins etc great stuff but almost every single day here someone is upset about someone else's dog whch rushes at them or causes them or their dogs grief when they go for walks etc and for me this is the absoloute biggest issue. Put in an off leash park, bins and bags , even offer training and that will provide a service to a handful of people and it wont make any difference to how the ones who need to get it right and are not will continue. If a dog gets picked up off the street give them one free ride home and work with the owner to work out how the dog wont get out again . Work on prevention of problems rather than trying to play around with feel good bandaids.

But honestly much of this is our own fault and because we have been educated on what should be by a bunch of loonies. Asal was intimidated just by the fact that the RSPCA were asking questions and not even genetics professors agree on this stuff. Yet we answer to someone on a phone who has no knowledge of our breed or of the issues breeders deal with and face in order to try to breed great dogs and pray we say the "right' thing so they dont come after us. We put our hand up offer refunds, free dogs,and money back when its rarely a situation we could do anything about and basically its just not fair - but we are all worried about the caning we will get if we dont. We take dogs out of the gene pool because "someone" says we should without understanding it all first . Often one breeder will cheer about another breeder being in the poo - basically because breeding dogs has become such a low life thing to do that they clutch at anything including helping make the other guy look bad to make themselves look better.

I bet I did :D

Ive watched many go belly up. You cant assume anything and you cant allow the puppy buyer to assume anything. You need to be clear about what you are guaranteeing and under what conditions it will be accepted or not accepted and for how long you will consider it. You need to be clear about how you will ensure that the claim is bone vide and what your requirements are - second opinions, being examined by your vet etc. You need to be clear about who will pay to have the dog returned or who will pay for the second opinion etc - second guess EVERYTHING. IF something goes wrong the people who have been your wonderful puppy buyers can turn in a heartbeat to be the worst monsters you have ever met .They are emotional, grieving or worrying, they love the dog just as you wished they would and so they may react in a manner you didnt see coming if something goes wrong. Chuck in a bit of other people advising them on what the breeder should or should not have done to avoid the problem , a bit of animal rights propoganda and you an find yourself way out on a limb. HD is the one that really gets to me. We all know that HD is only about 14% purely genetics and I watch breeders constantly guaranteeing against HD - then of course when there is a fight all of the other things that may impact are in the mix , exercise, diet, living conditions,chemicals etc and the owner had no idea that any of these things would impact on their ability to get a refund etc. They dont just want a refund they also want vet bills covered and they may want it years after the pup goes home. They want to tell the world what a mongrel you are and tell the RSPCA you are breeding with defective animals etc. Dont say you will guarantee anything for life unless you have DNA to show you wont and then be very specific about exactly what it is you are guaranteeing. The reality is the only things you can guarantee is that you are sending home a healthy pup and that it wont get something you have definitely tested for and cleared it for. If it is sick when it gets to its new home you are it. If it gets sick soon after from something it may have had which the vet didnt pick up or it was incubating at time of delivery you are it. Even if insurance covers it you still sold something which at the time of sale was not fit for the purpose it was sold for. Chances of that happening is remote and why Pet plan and Bow Wow offer free insurance for that period.- limited risk. You cant guarantee a dog will be a champion or that it will be a great breeding dog unless you are a little mad either in my opinion but people who buy dogs with main papers have that expectation and unless you spell it out you can end up in nastiness central. Remember its not just about whether its fair for the puppy buyer to expect something or not its also about the stress level and the impact on your reputation. From a puppy buers perspective they dont understand the implications and when breeders send up smoke screens it not fair to them. If you say you will replace the pup or refund the money but then you demand they return the original dog first breeders already know what that would mean and chances are they are off the hook - after all they offered to honour the guarantee. if someone doesnt want to keep their dog any more will you bring it home - and if so at who's cost and help find it a new home or will you buy it back and pay them money for the return and to have it bought home - even when its 10 years old ?

How long? I received a complaint about one of our breeders ,owner had purchased the dog 7 years ago and had recently taken it to the vet and the vet said it had an eye condition which was genetic .The owner went back to the breeder and without asking for any kind of proof of the situation from the owner the breeder offered to pay the owner half of the purchase price which was paid for the pup 7 years ago . Long story short - We requested written report from the vet of exactly what this genetic condition was before we considered what kind of sin the breeder had committed and we asked what outcome would the owner feel was a good outcome - what she wanted us to do to the breeder to punish her if in fact she had bred a dog 7 years ago which now had developed a genetic condition .Answer I want a full refund - the fact the breeder only offered her half was in her opinion evidence that the breeder didn't care. A week later when I followed up I was told that the vet wouldn't write a report and had now said it may not be genetic. the complaint was withdrawn. So why would you replace the pup without seeing the vet report yourself and having the opportunity to show the report to your vet for their opinion. Why would you be pressured into admitting you were breeding with defective dogs or accept that you are based on what you have been told and not after some investigation to determine whether the dogs used were in fact "defective" or whether shit just happened as it does sometimes. Did the RSPCA happen to explain to you why in one breath you are breeding with defective dogs yet the person claiming this is wanting another one of your dogs? Bit of a mute point for you now but you need to put every little thing in writing - if you have a guarantee that says you will replace the pup if something goes wrong with no date on it , no conditions such as having to have the dog examined by two independent vets etc in this day and age you are a sitting duck. Having said that its unlikely they can sue you via fair trading as you are not an entity via their criteria Dont speak to anyone whether they claim they are RSPCA or not on the phone request EVERYTHING they have to say to you in writing and respond only in writing after you have someone else look at it for you.

Right now as the system stands there is a high risk of collusion and corruption and there is no where for the person feeling they are being treated poorly to go and no system to ensure that processes are accountable etc.

Do we want the government defining what we can and can't do with our animals? Especially if they run it as they run the rest of the goverment, with no clue about what they are actually doing? Of course not but that's about what it will come to if it goes the way it is now - but separate issue we do want the state government setting up an ombusdman to investigate compliants against those charged with policing animal welfare laws.

A bit of history - some time ago the MDBA was approached to join a group which was intended to do this - the belief is that sooner or later there will be such a group without much input from various animal groups. I was told back before pedigreed dogs exposed was released that the goal was to have one group which woud oversee all issues relating to dogs. So I asked who else woud be on this committee - long story short the vast majority of the group were anti purebred breeding. We refused simply because it is akin to having 4 sheep sitting at the dinner table with 10 wolves voting on whats for dinner and the group never eventuated anyway. But there is a big background push on for some group to police all issues pertaining to dogs as there is in some parts of europe.

who is this independent governing body accountable to? there is no independent body at this time in Australia dealing with animal issues and there is no independent ombudsman type situation where members of th epublic can complain about any behaviour or activity of the RSPCA or AWL. The only accountability is a yearly audit of their donations just as every other charity.

Yep, agreed. But who would fund it? The state government.

We need an INDEPENDENT governing body for those who are given quasi Police powers dealing with animal issues.

Posted the same thing now about 8 times. Hardly spamming when its done by accident.