Steve

Im not defensive Im honest .If it had been my experience that the stuff you read on the net regarding Pembroke Corgis were true I would say so. It's hard to believe that someone somewhere didnt just decide that because they were dwarfs that they must have problems that some other dwarfs do and I would be interested in seeing their data to prove that back issues are a problem in the breed. Surely if it were by now after having been around hundreds if not thousands of Corgis over a 50 year period I would have seen this.

Is that true? Did they seriously temp test 4 week old puppies and bump them off ? Cav pups? The fact is there are a lot of people making a lot of money out of all areas of "rescue" who have vested interest in pushing one "solution" or another . At the end of the day the question has to be what is the best solution for the dogs not them, their groups or their bank accounts.

Yep you make a good point.

But with all the PR and media , Oscars Law etc if most people out in the public arena away from this type of place do think that puppy farmers are commercial breeders why are they still buying tens of thousands of puppies from them? What is a commercial breeder?

Joe public and the government usually agree that this is what a puppy farmer is - there fore they write more and more stupid laws to try to stop people from breeding dogs regardless of how many they breed in substandard conditions - trouble is no breeder who loves dogs would ever give their regs a tick only those who have hundreds of dogs who see them as stock see their standards as a good thing. Its why pet shops say they dont buy from puppy farmers and why people including the PM's partner buy puppies from kennels which have hundreds of dogs and state they didnt buy from a puppy farmer . Over and over and over again it rolls around no matter what YOU or I think a puppy farmer is it is not automatically someone who breeds dogs commercially in all circles that matter. So O.K. If we are going to protest commercial breeders is that all of them including all the ones who the law says are doing the right thing? After all the reason the laws are in is because of the call for more laws to regulate breeders - it was animal rights groups who wanted this and all it did was run off small breeders who cant or wont comply with their version of standard conditions. Is that someone who breeds 5 litters a year etc. You cant compare the UK with Australia - its a completely different cultural system with dog breeding. Breeders of pedigreed dogs over there don't need to be registered with the UK kennel club and they have problems with people breeding dogs and hoarding in filthy conditions just as we do. This whole focus on dont buy puppies from pet shops because they come from puppy farmers wont fly here - ANKC breeders can and do sell puppies to pet shops and they say they only buy from breeders with permits [commercial breeders not puppy farmers] Stopping them being sold in a pet shop wont stop them breeding them or selling them. there are numerous great reasons for people not to buy from a pet shop and instead buy from a breeder and that's what we should be focusing on in my opinion.

the fines are set by the state government.

Many high profile pounds and shelters do not have a set of processes (application forms, criteria,process, follow up) in place , even in late 2012 when there are mountains of anecdotal evidence to suggest this is best practice., costs little, extends the time available for the dog to be re-homed and can save on vets bills. Pounds and shelters, if they were managed effectively, would have these things in place so that rescues could assist them to save more dogs. They would offer among other things, education, support, assistance with marketing, policies and procedures, selecting and dealing with foster carers etc In the meantime kill rates in the high 40 percentiles still occur. Yes agreed but each state is different and most of these things are legislated in Victoria. Some of the high profile pounds being named did let small rescue in and they were trying to work with them and they ended up in all kinds of bad PR when the people they let in began critising them. In Victoria there are very strict laws about what dogs can and cannot be offered for rehoming and if these stats are going to be included they need to be broken down in case its the stupid laws and not stupid policy thats a bigger problem. I could easily see how the PR nightmare might happen. Sometimes, however it is deserved and effective managers could even use BAD PR to make GOOD changes. More than likely though, they probably turn inward and ban future partnerships with rescues rather than work in a way that will both create future positive PR opportunities (= more goodwill and future $) as well as SAVE more dogs. Deserved or not most businesses - most people would shut shop if they were belted when they opened it. Im not saying they were wrong Im saying they have to see what part they played and nothing has changed . If they let the same ones in again they will find something to go public about and therefore impact on their donations.

The point most of that money was given by people under the belief it would be used to save lives and they aren't doing it Look at Save A Dog they save almost all their dogs, and I don't believe they just luck out and get all amazing dogs while 55% of the lost dogs home were aggressive/so ill vet treatment wouldn't help Yes but not all shelters get to choose what dogs they take. Its easy for someone who only takes in small white fluffies which they temp test before they bring in to state they are no kill - huge difference to a pound that gets in dogs which they get no choice on. You cant seriously believe that all dogs should be or could be saved.

Yes but how much of that was profit from dumped animals and not donations etc.

Many high profile pounds and shelters do not have a set of processes (application forms, criteria,process, follow up) in place , even in late 2012 when there are mountains of anecdotal evidence to suggest this is best practice., costs little, extends the time available for the dog to be re-homed and can save on vets bills. Pounds and shelters, if they were managed effectively, would have these things in place so that rescues could assist them to save more dogs. They would offer among other things, education, support, assistance with marketing, policies and procedures, selecting and dealing with foster carers etc In the meantime kill rates in the high 40 percentiles still occur. Yes agreed but each state is different and most of these things are legislated in Victoria. Some of the high profile pounds being named did let small rescue in and they were trying to work with them and they ended up in all kinds of bad PR when the people they let in began critising them. In Victoria there are very strict laws about what dogs can and cannot be offered for rehoming and if these stats are going to be included they need to be broken down in case its the stupid laws and not stupid policy thats a bigger problem.

Ive lived with Corgis for almost 50 years and not one not ever had a back problem

Agreed but ask them what they think a puppy farm is and you will get varying answers. If we all agree that we dont want to see dogs being kept in concrete pens and isolated from humans and other dogs then why do we keep calling for and getting more and more legislation which makes even small breeders do this - to a point where they walk away therefore given their share of the market to bigger breeders? If a the definition puppyfarm is in fact a commercial breeding establishment then why on earth is the government enabling them to be commercial breeding establishments ? If the goal is to cut down on puppies being bred in large scale establishments without due care and socialisation we need to say that but calling for a stop to all commercial breeding means any breeder can be accused of that regardless of what they feel or say their motivation is. Many show breeders call other show breeders puppy farmers because they dont like them or because they breed a few more puppies than they do. If we are going to be serious about targeting this then we will need to have a clear line in the sand - how do we determine who is breeding commercially? What criteria will we use to decide this? It cant be just about whether you keep your dogs in concrete pens because you have no choice regardless of whether you are breeding commercially or not than to keep them that way. There have been raids done on breeders in Victoria and if they are caught with dogs not on concrete and in more than lots of two there are screams for the breeder to loose their permits . If we are against commercial breeding and we really are expecting to get something done to stop dogs suffering and still have some people left who breed dogs we have to narrow it down more first - so everyone who is calling for an end to puppy farming are all calling for the same thing - not some calling for an end to commercial breeding and others calling for an end to dogs being mistreated because clearly the way the laws are written dogs are mistreated when they sleep in houses with their families and not mistreated when they sleep in concrete stalls.

Exactly Yep. Some of those advocating for pounds and shelters to work more closely with small rescue groups need to stand back and accept that they are responsible for pounds and shelters being reluctant to work with them. There are also laws at play especially in Victoria where there are strict laws in place to determine which dogs can and cannot be rehomed. Also lumping in cat numbers with dogs is very misleading especially when a high majority of cats in pounds are feral and not someone's ex pet. Until we get true stats which tell us exactly why dogs are put down so we know which ones have incurable illnesses or temperament issues etc and until we have true figures on where they come from ,who dumps them and why etc its all just grabbing at straws . Figures are manipulated and few players are capable of being objective.

However, calling for changes to puppy farms ends up ensuring new laws actually benefit and advantage commercial breeders over small hobby breeders . Someone breeding commercially is different to someone who is breeding in sub standard conditions unless they are also breeding in substandard conditions. Standard conditions are those which were determined by regs and laws which make it easier to breed large numbers commercially and make it difficult for small breeders to comply. They are standards which small breeders dont want to have to comply with. How will you determine who is breeding commercially? Is there a magic number 5? 10? 20? 50? or is it if they say they are breeding for nothing more than money? Maybe its if they are not breeding registered dogs or perhaps if they dont show their dogs. When you run off small breeders you leave a greater demand for commercial breeders and the situation gets worse not better for the dogs. 2 weeks ago I spoke with a registered breeder who has 10 dogs of a Toy breed. They are a very laid back breed and do better living inside the home as part of the family .The breeder lives on a large property out in the boonies and her dogs sleep inside and run free all day but council have said she needs a DA to be able to breed her dogs and in order to comply she needs to build a concreted area and house her dogs there in order to comply and be within the standards. Her choices are desex all of her dogs - she is able to have her dogs living inside as long as they are not fertile or Sell all of her dogs and give up breeding or comply with the order , spend 35,000 dollars to do so even though she knows its not in her dog's best interest . If she spends $35000 to set the place up and keep her dogs in what she considers to be substandard but will be standard according to the laws isnt she more tempted to breed more puppies to cover her expenses? i know another breeder who has a concreted area all set up and her dogs have never been in it as they live in her house because she believes its not good for the dogs to live in regulation standard conditions - not many breeders who are not breeding commercially have that kind of money to throw around without any hope of ever having anything to show for it. Its not as easy as it all sounds and there are unintended consequences when changes are advocated without all of the required knowledge.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

I dont mind when you ask any question. Just be yourself . There isnt a chance I would spend more than a hundred dollar on one item unless it was an urgent necessity without first discussing it with my hubby and if he did that Id be off the air.

No matter how hard we try none of us will ever know what a dog is thinking. You can only ever make the best guess at it via observation and putting your own interpretation onto it. In my experience most dogs do seem to cope pretty well and what I see is all I have to go on. You can say the dog is sad because its missing it's owner but we will never know. Could be its missing its bed, or back yard for all any of us could know.

People die at any age but people who are old and die more often make arrangements for their pets before that happens. Believe me one thing I've learned for sure working with Pacers is that shit happens to people all over the place and families want to dump the dogs no matter their age.

Ive spoken to some recently and they were saying as far as they were concerned they never want to be recognised by the ANKC . To them and everyone else its already a breed.

As a breeder I cant let my puppies go until 8 weeks but I would prefer to get my puppies around 7 weeks. Its a breed thing too. In my opinion a Maremma going to work is better to go home at 6 weeks. Up until 6 weeks dogs are taught how to behave like dogs by their Mum and their litter mates and dont really need much human one on one but after that they need more human than dog companion ship to enable them to know how to behave as pets .With Maremma human is replaced with which ever animal they are working with so in my opinion they do better and much quicker and easier if they do that at 6 weeks rather than later. Here if they are going to work I replace litter and human with lots of sheep or chooks etc depending on how they will work and while they still get lots of human I dont want them still within the litter because its harder then to stop them chasing and playing with the animals they will work with as they get them confused with litter mates. If I have one going as a Pet I get to love it and snuggle it until it goes home too as I give it less time with its litter mates and more time with me.

Well I wont miss it - its only my job for another couple of days and then its school holidays and someone else can take over.

It is - they just amaze me more and more every day and of course everyone should have lambs and puppies in their lounge room too No wonder nothing gets done around here.Every time I look at them I cant help but smile. Hubby wants to call the lamb Sunday Roast . You mean everyone DOESEN'T have lambs and puppies in the lounge room? :laugh: They are real time wasters aren't they. Glad the lamb has settled. What milk replacer were you using? Must admit I have had good results with the Wiltipoll on Profelac with Protexin added. I did name one BBQ..... I reckon Ive tried most brands including a calf milk replacer too but they thrive on ordinary old coles cows milk with a few drops of olive oil and pentavite better. As they get older - around two weeks I introduce a feed a day of the powdered stuff but they dont do as well if I try to give them more of the powdered. This one was a bit puny but its drinking like a champion with nice firm poos so Im sticking with it. They start eating grass and hay pretty quickly if you can keep em alive long enough.

No wool here. I've a Dorper stud. No shearing,crutching, mulesing or eating anything I breed. That's some wonderful early training for that puppy...lucky those who get him for their stock. :) I thought Dorper were a meat breed So what are the sheep for Steve? Milk? Cheese? Yep they are a meat breed but we have a stud so all of ours are sold for breeding - if any of them do get eaten or their kids or grandkids I dont have to think about it. We are going to have a go at cheese after Christmas when we are almost ready to open our tea room.

Andrea is good at placing the right dog in the right place - just give her all of your details and be sure to explain exactly what you need the dog to do so she understands what the dog will be expected to do as there is a huge difference between a dog that works O.K. with handful of animals or a variety of animals on a small holding and one which needs to fend off bigger predators on a larger property with more of the animals it will need to protect.