Steve

I have farm insurance to cover me if my working dogs bite someone or my stud ram head butts your new car in my driveway. But I doubt that would get me out of my dog being at risk of a dangerous dog notice or being destroyed if it bites someone. That causes me a bit of worry because the humans around here havent shown much common sense or respect for the fact that the Maremmas are specifcally used to protect their sheep from predators. The last time the meter reading came in we had the sheep and working Maremmas in the house yard and new lambs born the day before. Usually when people come here they drive through three gates and drive up to the house - the dogs accept that as normal behaviour. This guy however parks his vehicle outside the second gate and intends to walk the last 200 metres to the house right through the middle of the new lambs withtheir Mum's. He has a hat on which covered half his face and big sunglasses. He is walking briskly and is swinging one arm carrying his black thing which he uses to read the meter - about 30 cm long - looks like a weapon. I hear the dog going nuts and see the guy walking towards the gate so I race out but by the time I get out he is already through the gate and a few metres from the ewe and her lamb. The dog has hackles up and standing his ground between the guy and the ewe - yelling at him telling him in no uncertain terms to get back out and not come another step. By now I meet the guy and tell him Ill walk him in but the dog doesnt like him and the guy was in no doubt about that the whole time he was here. Then bugger me as Im walking him back out he stops and wants to look at the cute baby lamb - turns sharply towards them and takes a couple of steps - the dog grabbed his trouser leg and the fact that by now the ewe was further away than she was when he came in as she had walked off with her twins with the bitch was probably all that prevented it being his leg rather than his pants. Anyway it showed me that when the sheep are in the house yard I have to do other things to ensure someone doesnt get in this position. So I padlock the gate and I have a sign saying Working Maremma - do not enter - sound horn. One key to the padlock is outside the gate so the family can get in without me needing to walk down but strangers dont know that so if they want in they need me. It also made me think I probably need a sign on the paddock fences too - Working Maremma - do not enter - because we have had two incidences where an idiot jumped two back fences and walked across the paddock with the sheep and the dogs to get to the house yard. We also had another incident where the Maremma pinged a dog - walking off leash in the showground which came through two fences into our sheep paddock with the owner watching to give it the hint that if it didnt get out of the paddock it would die and the owner turned up here to ask for vet bills. Id hate to see the dogs at risk for doing their job so Im aiming to do what I can to eliminate the risk but geez we put in a boundry fence and then paid extra thiousands of dollars to put in another fence 15 metere from the boundry fence to prevent anything coming in or our dogs being able to get to the boundry fence surely there is a limit to what you can do.

That would be a yes. Even vaccinated dogs can get it. Yep if its already in and incubating especially if its parvac which as far as I know is the only one which only does parvo as its a killed vaccine and takes longer for the immunity levels to cut in. But its not just about parvo anyway there are so many things that any of these dogs could bring home to a foster carer and put their dogs and their family at risk. There are some which can infect other dogs they are travelling with or near or they are exposed to. Rescue has to acknowledge that what they do isnt just about the dog they see in front of them.There is no excuse to throw a foster carer in the deep end in this way. Ths poor girl put her hand up to do the right thing and she is not given any tools or knowledge - or respect for what she is doing. What was done here exposed her own dog and environment to something which we now know was parvo but what of the other internal and external parasites zoonotic and potential risks she and her dog and family may have been exposed to which are less obvious at first because of the environment they have come from and the history of their existence before being "rescued" ? How do you treat someone so poorly? I too am interested in how these animals are being moved around the country - straight from the pound.

Sadly, not all breeders have as well-rounded talents as you do Miranda. As long as breeders breed really good dogs and aim for excellence in that, they should be given whatever encouragement and support is necessary to assist with that hobby. In the same way that clubs put effort into exhibition of dogs and measuring excellence, they could also provide more assistance with attracting and qualifying the right buyers for the breed. Ultimately, because these are dogs and not retail products, the seller should remain in control of the process and make the decisions based on their own criteria. With Perthgirls' email, she did not get a good rate of response for whatever reason. But what if she was potentially the best future breeder ever of dogs, and just lacked a few communication skills? What if her customer service expectations were inadvertently too high because she has never bought an animal from somebody not motivated by profit before? She thought her email was great. Friendly and enthusiastic, to the point and asking questions (that were not stupid), she had no idea of why she got little response. Hence her frustration. I just feel that we need more good purebreed owners and breeders, and at the moment this thread is highlighting a major challenge to that. It doesn't hurt to explore options, and build on or refine ideas that others put forward here. Good points but there are several sub issues in this topic and I think this is one of them. I dont think its even about selling something if you are not motivated by profit - in fact for all we know this breeder may be motivated by profit and thats why she wants a deposit before she cooks the puppy. We dont know how she speaks to or treats people who she may sell a puppy to because she hasnt been contacted. She may have fantastic customer relation skills and she may be eager to sell PG a puppy on her terms. The over riding issue is that because some breeders put the type of conditions of sale on how they operate that this leads to "no wonder people go to BYB." In all honesty it really is about supply and demand. If breeders had dozens of puppies on the ground and couldnt find homes for them if they were being too difficult to deal with or not responding to emails or being too selective on communication criteria you would see a change. If this breeder in particular has a litter of puppies and no deposits until after they are born then its not going to hurt her unless that policy prevents too many enquiries being made and they have these puppies at an age where they should be going to their new homes and no sales. Then the breeder would work out its not such a good idea and take that restriction down from her website. I also think we need more purebred owners but we dont have enough purebred breeders and we dont have enough purebred puppies and it gets less every day. We see people calling for promotion of pure breds and a push for people to come to us to buy puppies as the preferred source. We have devolped all kinds of mythology surrounding what a registered breeder is and the miraculous things they can control and do for their puppies and their buyers. We have expectations on how often they will breed and denigrate anyone even remotely perceived as breeding "too many" "too often" "for the pet market" or in anyway motivated by profit. Anne is right and much of this today is about peer pressure but there is much more to the story - again another topic. Based on current politics and numbers in the purebred dog world of breeders I dont think anyone offering a service as you have suggested would have much business. Breeders dont care if they have poor communication skills because if someone wants a puppy badly enough they will put up with that and they dont care if hundreds of great puppy buyers never get a dog because they have enough to sell their puppies to. Why do they care if someone buys a puppy from a BYB or a pet shop as long as they sell theirs to those who jump through hoops with pike. Im not commenting on what I think about all of this - again another topic but sooner or later there has to be an Ah Ha moment where we get that there isnt enough purebred puppies to go around. Promoting them simply means more breeders can and will do what suits them and not what sells puppies more quickly or more easily.

The posts from people sadden me about this event turning them off fostering. I volunteer for a rescue group in Brisbane(NOT the one named!!) who do a fantastic job and it angers me that the actions of this particular 'rescue' group have turned people who would be fantastic carers off. I find it deeply upsetting as it is so hard to find dedicated foster carers for the dogs we save and our good work gets tarnished by some selfish acts of other groups. To all of you who were considering fostering before this happened, please do not be turned off. There are simple methods to make sure that your own dogs are not put at risk. Talk to the rescue group you wish to foster for and make sure that the dog has been vaccinated before you receive it in your care, make sure that they have good procedures in place and make you feel comfortable. Fostering is the best experience….given you do it with the right group  Yes I agree that the fallout each time something like this happens is so sad. Foster carers are the very best resource any rescue group can have .Even without the added risk factors of what has been demonstrated in this thread caused by in adequate operating policies its a major issue for people to consider taking another dog in their homes which will imapct on the life and dynamics of the household. These people should be treated like gold - trained and nurtured and supported and nothing put as a priority over them and their own dog's welfare. It seems that foster carers are seen as the lowest level of the chain and treated with appalling lack of understanding - just taken for granted to some rescue groups and its time this was rectified.

Yep every sngle one has a story to tell. Some you cant say much about due to privacy issues but how awesome are our foster carers! They not only take these animals into their home but they also allow the owners to visit where its practical and keep them updated on what's happening in their animals day to day lives! Its really hard to find the words to explain how much admiration I have for these people and put into words the sacrifices they make to provide something for someone who needs a hand and so far every single one who has helped us out has done everything by the book and perfect. Its too bad that all of the stories could not be told. We have one who wasnt able to foster but wanted to help so her and her husband went to markets every second week end to sell hand made greeting cards and book marks for us and each and every time deposited the money made on the day into our account. Usually this couple sat there all day - regardless of the weather and distributed our flyers and made around $10 a week just for us! How wonderful! How do you say thank you adequately for that? That person is no longer able to do that as her husband who also helped pacers to raise this $10 per fortnight has been diagnosed with a terminal illness. Thats just one more reason why Im so honoured to have been able to know these people and you just cant explain adequately how every contribution and every gesture of offer for help and donations of money and time are appreciated. Not just by the people and animals they help but by anyone who hears their stories. Pacers has been able to make a difference to lots of people now who have needed help with their animals but the contribution ordinary every day people are making in all manner of ways is incredible and it needs someone much better with the written word than me to attempt to say thank you.

Some years ago at least 2 people I know of were running programs which did exactly this. Screened buyers and found the right breeder - put them in touch and helped with details etc - sort of like an agent. Even though the actual breeder and buyer completed the deal and payments were made to the breeder they were pushed pretty hard to stop.Since then Fair trading is in the mix so it may be changed but this was also one of the things Clover Moores bill would have made difficult. Also hobbyists are the least likely to hand over the sale of their animals to a third person.

Non profit businesses still make a profit they are just restricted on what they can do with that profit. It has to remain within the business and cannot be distributed to share holders and any losses cannot be offset against the office bearers tax accounts. The board cannot profit from the business but the business is expected to profit in order to grow and function. Sorry I dont agree that no profit businesses are a good model for breeders. If we want to get technical and talk business entities then when it comes to breeding dogs what the ATO says and whether or not you can claim yoru expenses to reduce your taxable income isnt the main consideration. Each state has different definitions for the "business of breeding dogs" In NSW for example anyone who ever breeds one puppy is considered to be in the business of breeding dogs.This is a state declaration and regardless of where you live in that state that applies to you. It means if they want to they can force you to apply for a DA to run a business from home - even though the ATO says you are not a business. Even if you breed that pup and give it away. All breeders in all states are required to keep records, house and treat their animals in a certain way with mandatory codes and or POCTA requirements.

Well after all its just like mixing paint isnt it? One poodle x lab = 69 different potential coat combinations - how many combinations do you reckon you might get with the 100,000 or so other genes in a dog. Didnt they do year 8 science?

Thanks! They haven't informed me of ANYTHING!!! I haven't heard from them since 9am this morning when I called them to tell them he had tested positive for Parvo!!! What should I be expecting of this group in terms of support? Should I be expecting them to supply me with the chemical you mentioned that needs to be ordered from the vet? Should I send an email outlining my concerns and informing them I will not be fostering. OH and I don't even want to bring Huey home if he recovers. We feel like this whole ordeal has traumatised us a little and we want someone else to care for him and find him a loving forever home. I don't think fostering is for us. We were attached and all ready to adopt Huey even thought in hindsight now wasn't the best time (with the wedding coming up etc). I've sent numerous emails to the coordinator and got NO response in the past few days. I have had to call HER with concerns. Am really dissapointed!!! Im so sorry that your desire to make a difference and enthusiasm has been squashed - If you would like to consider fostering again please give me a yell and we will sort out a foster carers course for you to help you to dodge some of the bullets. Times have changed "rescuing " isnt what it used to be and its no longer acceptable for people to walk in with nothing much more than good intentions and set up shop without covering the basics. Not only does this put the dogs and the people involved at risk but it also splashes onto the community and damages all the great work rescue have been doing to get it right. This isnt just about one dog which came straight from a pound and had parvo. There are many more things pound dogs may have which will put the carers dogs at risk but also their family's health as well. The bigger picture is that one pup has potentially spread this disease around and caused other people and their dogs to suffer but its also about the fallout. Why would anyone want to put their hand up to foster dogs if this is how things occur ? Foster carers are a rescue group's biggest asset.Consider for a minute what it takes to agree to bring a strange dog into your home which will impact on your own animals and your family. Apart from the obvious kennel cough and parvo there are loads of risks which you cant vaccinate for which your own animals can contract but also your kids. The public and potential foster carers dont just associate poor practices with your group but it impacts on the years and years of hard lessons and progress made by reputable rescue. It threatens to have them come under restrictive laws and regulations and it causes a back wash far greater and wider than you see personally. Please use this to learn and grow. No kill is great until it means no kill is suffering.

Animal right progpaganda be buggered. Try peer group. Nup I think it started with animal right/welfare and maybe now some breeders are pushing it but on the whole Im saying ist something pushed by do gooders. In fact last time I looked the RSPCA had this on their website and it was one of the things the Clover Moore bill attempted to address - breeders advertising.

<snippage of the rest of the post> Just wanted to respond to this bit. I paid a deposit for my first wheaten terrier puppy. It covered the cost of his travel from South Australia. While I can see that a non-refundable deposit might be profiteering, I would pay a deposit again once I was assured I would be getting a puppy. It seems rather logical to me. I think its perfectly reasonable for a deposit to be paid when they are on the ground - alive , warm and wriggly - when you actually have the right sex and all the rest in your hand. I think taking deposits before they are even baked to be a bit high risk for my liking. About 20 years ago I offered a breeder a deposit on a pup I had agreed to pay and she said no. When I went back to organise pick up - she had sold it to someone else. I take a deposit on my puppies when they are around 10 days old but its not non refundable.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale. When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000. Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion. I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable. I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already). But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund. If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them? Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty? I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB" Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade? Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market. You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs. I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line. I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit. The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required. Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business. In that instance it is no longer a hobby. But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all. You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business. However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby. No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us. This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go. Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale. When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000. Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion. I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable. I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already). But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund. If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them? Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty? I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB" Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade? Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market. You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale. When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Asking for a deposit before the pups are born isnt a new thing or that un common. In their defence they may be trying to manage the number of people they have had wanting to be placed on their waiting list. Some breeders in some breeds get a huge amount of people who say they want a puppy . They take their names and spend many hours of their lives getting to know them and then when the big day comes and the breeder starts to move through the list to let them know puppies have arrived they are all gone. They have purchased one from another breeder, another breed or one from a pet shop or pound. Personally I wouldnt consider paying a desposit or even think of asking for a deposit until the pups were at least 2 weeks old - when risk factors have lessened that there will be a pup ready for me to take home - this litter or any litter. I had an enquiry about 2 weeks ago from someone who had paid a $1000 deposit when the pup was a week old asking me if I knew if the breeder was on the up and up,if I knew of them etc and even though they were going to the breeders home to pick the puppy up in person the breeder had as apart of the sales agreement that they pay the balance on the pup $1500 2 weeks before they arrived to pick it up. I spent a bit of time thinking that one through too. Nothing much to say about it though if thats what the puppy buyer is aware of and agrees to when they put the deposit down. No one could answer what would happen if th ebuyer got there and decided after seeing the pup or the property, other dogs etc they changed their mind and decided not to take the pup. Personally I think its a high risk behaviour for a breeder to take a deposit on a pup before its born and they are sure its alive, right sex warm and wriggly.If I had $5 for every time something happened which would affect that I would be doing O.K. No pregnancy, phantoms , whelping complications,rearing disasters, the in ability to write a recipe for what sex etc can and very often do disappoint a breeder but if the buyer has a deposit on would also suffer the disappointment on a higher level than theydo if these things happen without a deposit. I also think that there may be valid reason for a breeder to take full amount on a pup if they are worried about bouncing cheques or if the pup is being transported without the buyer personally picking it up but its not something I think is without risk. Risk of something going wrong and risk of someone saying I dont want that dog now Ive seen it.Thats rare but still possible and it feels to me that its just trouble waiting to happen. Until you ask you dont know whether the ask for a depsoit before the pup is born is some kind of smoke screen to keep enquiries down or to ensure you are serious and Id be interested to know - but I wouldnt place a deposit on a pup which wasnt born yet any more than I would pay full price on a pup 2 weeks before Im coming to the breeders property to pick it up. Is this and other things being spoken of in this thread the reason why some people go to back yard breeders - definitely.But should the breeder behave in a manner which is only designed to keep people away from going to a back yard breeder ? No. At the end of the day - the breeder calls the shots on the sales terms and if you dont like it, you have choices - one of them is to go to a BYB.

What you can use - Sandoz, Glucose, Glucodin, Honey, Karo Syrup - Rub into gums. Previous threads on the subject Here Here Helpful Links Does anyone have any they would like to add? My one and only experience with hypoglycemia (and the puppy went into shock) was caused by Coccia in the system. Once treated, the tiny lil thing improved and recovered within 12 hours. Follow up treatments were given and apart from ensuring the blighter was eradicated, or at the very least, managed, there were no further problems. The parasite was introduced via a puppy brought in from another kennel and she was pleased to hear of our encounter as similar symptoms had occurred in other puppies in the litter. Dosing the puppies with glucose only masked the problem which kept reoccurring. The puppies were then able to be treated correctly and the problem eradicated. Since that episode, at the recommendation of our vet, we treat the mothers immediately after whelping as a safe-guard. It might be worth considering if you see it in your litters. Coccidia can be lurking in the systems of adult dogs without any symptoms at all and puppies of around 12 weeks gain resistance. A whelping bitch can be under enough stress to shed Coccidia which in turn the puppies pick up. Mine wasnt caused by coccidia.

We have just stitched up the new venue for next March at the Chifley on Lennons in Brisbane. Most of you who were squashed a bit this year will be happy to know there will be much more room to move

First of all, my apologies to all DOLers for again going OT, but I missed this post yesterday and therefore didn't reply to it. Steve the wording on your website has since been changed (probably because of the outcry), but it originally stated that the MDBA would appoint five people (not necessarily breeders) from each individual breed, and those people would review the breed standard for their particular breed on a three yearly basis. Should those people decide that some parts of the standard should be changed, they would submit their recommendations to the MDBA and the board of directors plus various unnamed veterinarians and geneticists would then proceed to act on those recommendations should they decide that the changes to the breed standard would be in the best interests of the health and welfare of the breed. This statement is no longer on your website, but I'm sure I am not the only one who remembers reading it a few months ago. Regarding the fees, no you do not charge to register individual puppies, but you do charge a flat fee of $30.00 per litter plus $4.00 for each individual MDBA pedigree certificate issued. You also charge $10 per dog to transfer a dog from an outside registry to the MDBA registry plus a $4.00 fee for a new MDBA pedigree. I am sure I am not out of order including these fees in this post as all fees are clearly stated on your website and accessible to all. There are also fees to register a prefix, renew a prefix, leases and so on, but I won't go into that. So even though I am sure that you have the best interests of the purebreed dog at heart, you are also making money out of the enterprise and as I said before there is nothing wrong with that as you are, after all, running a business and a business must make a profit to remain viable. Anyway this is definitely my last word on the subject, once again I apologise for going off topic in this thread. Miranda - I am more than happy to go through this with you privately - your assumptions are wrong.

But dont most non shedding breeds require more rather than less grooming?

No photos yet - Hoping to have them by the end of the week.

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed! Yep If you want a lab type dog that doesnt shed - its not in my opinion a labradoodle.

mucked it up

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory. Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify? I'm saying that it's the lab temp that seems to be the predominating feature that is important to people who are buying labradoodles, ie they basically want a lab that doesn't shed. They don't want poodles for various reasons but temperament has been slated as one of those reasons. So when I talk about the option of breeding towards this temperament type using either the non shedding breeds or the development of a new breed with these traits people come back saying they don't want their breeds 'dumbed down' or various other derogatory terms. Maybe it's just getting lost in translation but when I talk about breeding for a more suitable temperament for the average home I mean the average home in which the Labrador generally fits quite well (as evidenced by it's popularity over many years), the Labrador was getting along just fine as a family pet until yards got smaller and people started looking at bringing dogs inside and noticing the amount of hair shed on the furniture etc hence the shift towards non shedding breeds. There are plenty of breeds out there, I suggest you promote those. Then I suggest that instead of ruining current breeds, you direct them to other gundogs that may suit them. Doing some positive promotion of the MDBA again, I see, Steve ... No Sheridan just defending myself.

The name will in my opinion always create this kind of argument and confusion. Some people in this thread are talking about a group of dogs where the breeders are breeding toward a breed recognition. If they were not then going to all the trouble of having a breed standard and trying to get to a place where they are breeding consistently predictible dogs would not be needed or possible. But others are talking about dogs which are cross bred dogs with thousands of possible combinations and potentials in phenotype and genotype in every litter. Both are called labradoodles. If the breeders who are working toward one day having a consistent type capable of applying to a recognised registry for breed recognition dont have the name trade marked - and they dont - then any body can call any dog a labradoodle and all it does is help legitimise the whole designer dog concept anyway. Clearly some breeders have been able to work on developing new breeds [or all dogs would be the same] and most are able to be traced back to which breeds were in the foundations.When we look at the history of breed development and discuss current breed standards we talk of these breeders with respect and accept that when they designed their breeding programs, desired function and breed standards they knew what they were doing. Arguments here about specific breed standards have always been counteracted with how the breeders who were the foundation breeders did what they did with a specific purpose. Theoretically breeders who are working toward breed recognition in this century have a better shot at getting the thing right than any who have gone before if they use modern science and breeding protocols to select breeding stock based on things foundation breeders in the past couldnt utilise. So I guess the question is - in the year 2011 will any breeders who are involved in any kind of breed development with the hope of eventual breed recognition be given such rough treatment and their dogs spoken of as mongrels or is this something which is specific to this particular breed in development because of its stupid name? How do we feel about Mini foxies and the people who are working with that for example ? I believe the name is a bit of an issue for some there too. What of the breeders working with American Bulldogs,Shilohs etc ? In some countries maremma Sheepdog are not recognised as a breed. Would I be seen as breeding mutts if I lived in these countries - even though the breed has been recognised as a breed by others for centuries?

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future. I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry. Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it. Miranda - great post, if you get warned or banned for it, then DOL it not was it purports to be - this is a PUREBREED dog forum Which gives the right to attack someone and call for censorship ? That makes sense especially when the attack is based on crap.