WoofnHoof

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed! Yep If you want a lab type dog that doesnt shed - its not in my opinion a labradoodle. Not yet, but that's the ultimate goal as far as I can tell and that is what I'm talking about, whether it is currently available doesn't change the fact that that is what people want. If there is a viable purebred option for people who want this type of dog then it should be being promoted, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is a lot of people whinging about the development of a new breed, getting confused about f1 crosses and not really offering up any solutions for people who want a dog like a lab but without the hair. I also don't see how that somehow means a 'generic blah dog'

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to? And what is their chance of getting a pup before they are 90? As far as 'ruining breeds' goes that is entirely your perception, dog breeds are a human creation that change and shift according to needs and niches, sometimes breeds need to change in order to surivie and adapt to new roles.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory. Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify? I'm saying that it's the lab temp that seems to be the predominating feature that is important to people who are buying labradoodles, ie they basically want a lab that doesn't shed. They don't want poodles for various reasons but temperament has been slated as one of those reasons. So when I talk about the option of breeding towards this temperament type using either the non shedding breeds or the development of a new breed with these traits people come back saying they don't want their breeds 'dumbed down' or various other derogatory terms. Maybe it's just getting lost in translation but when I talk about breeding for a more suitable temperament for the average home I mean the average home in which the Labrador generally fits quite well (as evidenced by it's popularity over many years), the Labrador was getting along just fine as a family pet until yards got smaller and people started looking at bringing dogs inside and noticing the amount of hair shed on the furniture etc hence the shift towards non shedding breeds. Why do people keep buying labradoodles? General answer: because they've been conned. I, too, am a dog owner not a breeder and not a show person, though I am a purebred dog snob when it comes to people being conned into thinking a poodle x is not going to have poodle traits. It may, it may not. I have no objection to the fate of the labradoodle (whether it ends up with that name or not) being put into the hands of responsible people rather than puppyfarmers and BYBs. Indeed, I think that's what most of us want for all dogs, is it not? I just don't think that changing a breed's set traits so the Joe Blow can have a labrador that looks like a poodle is the answer. Nor can I see how adapting existing breeds for Joe Blow is in any way a welfare issue. That's the thing I'm not talking about f1 crosses and bybs I'm talking about the attempt to make this type breed true and have it recognised as a breed, there is no doubt that people are being conned with f1 crosses and the false claims about shedding and temperament but they don't have a lot of other options. They want a lab type dog that doesn't shed, that's all they are asking for. IMO it is a welfare issue because one of the main reasons there are bybs and puppy farms producing these crosses is because the public has not been given a viable option for the type of dog they want, in the past a lab type dog was enough for a lot of people, now it needs to be a lab type dog that doesn't shed. What people want in their dogs changes over time and often the breeds change in response, some hunting dogs were selectively bred to become retrievers as the need arose, some sled dogs became long distance sled pullers while others became short distance pullers, the changes were great enough that they became separate breeds over time. There is no difference to me dogs have always changed according to the role they play whether it's the result of diversification within a breed or without, the big difference now is that with marketing people have been able to make money from claims about any old cross, which complicates matters for people who are trying to actually create the breed.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory. I don't remember having a discussion about tollers but I have had similar discussions in the past because the question always comes up 'why do people keep buying these dogs?' I am attempting to answer it from the perspective of someone who is simply a dog owner not a breed fancier and not a purist, why ask the question if people don't want to hear the answers? Not that they are the only answers mind you, I mean if you ask me what I prefer breeds changing, the labradoodle as a recognized breed or better promotion and recognition of pure breeds as pets I will choose the latter every time but since the latter solution is no closer to being implemented than it was when I joined in 2006 then I tend to put voice to other options which may or may not be viable solutions. I've already mentioned several times that the perceptions of poodles in the general public need to be changed but it isn't happening, the other breeds are simply too rare and usually it is the poodle put forth as a good non shedding family pet. It's not up to me to decide the fate of purebred dogs I'm not a breeder nor am I a fancier of most of the breeds under discussion but I am interested in the welfare of dogs, so if the development of a new breed with a temperament and coat type more suited to modern living will give dogs a better welfare outcome then yes I will argue the advantages of doing so. If the adaptation of existing breeds will improve welfare outcomes then I'm interested in exploring that too.

I don't 'want' anything, I'm pointing out the obvious fact that there is a demand for dogs of lab type that are low or non shedding. I'm pointing at a few ways that pure breeders could cater to this niche without the development of a need breed. Again the use of the term 'generic blah dog's could be perceived as insulting and I don't even own a lab! No there isn't that has already been pointed out. There are many non-shedding breeds in a range of different sizes and temperaments. They range in size from the Toy Poodles and Bichon Frise to the Portnguese Water Dog and span most breed Groups (no Hounds though sadly). The fact that your average punter hasn't heard of many of them doesn't mean they can't be found. Again name one of these breeds with a temperament comparable to that of the Labrador and not as rare as hens teeth? If pure breed people are going to whinge about the development of the labradoodle as a new breed then they need to promote a viable and practical alternative, otherwise all the discussion in the world means nothing.

No there isn't that has already been pointed out.

There is nothing wrong with the breed but when it's continually trotted out as the viable alternative to the 'labradoodle' (which AGAIN I will point out is not half poodle half lab but IS a breed in development whether people agree with the stupid name or not) then it's obvious that the breed is not what people are looking for, otherwise they would be buying them in droves and not buying labradoodles (or buying crosses under the pretense that it carries the desired traits). I still think that your insistence that one of the most popular breeds in this country is so desirable because it attracts substandard owners is insulting. Labs have been popular for a very very long time, there is a reason for this and it's one worth investigating and not just dismissing out of some assumption that it's because they appeal to lazy people who want unresponsive lumps instead of 'real dogs' (whatever that means) Again that's great if you want the full on wheaten or kerry, but if other people don't what do you do? Which breed do you direct them to if there is none that filfils the requirement? There is no point saying find another breed because there isn't one - that's the problem. People say get a poodle but poodles need more stimulation than a lab, people say get this or that other breed but most of these are rare so where do people go? Assuming existing breeders can produce the amount of pups needed who is promoting them? Who is making buyers aware of them?

No, they're not. But why would crossing a Lab with a poodle guarantee Lab temperament anymore than it would guarantee poodle coat??? Add the fact that you're not talking the best of the best with either of the breeds used to generate crosses, that the pups are generally raised outside homes and you're pretty much guaranteeing you won't produce what families are looking for. If people come here asking for a non-shedding dog of "laid back" temperament, the first two things I'm going to ask are: * what do you mean by "laid back" * what exercise, training and stimulation will you provide? Temperament is only partly genetic. The rest is experience and environment. If people would only grasp that ideal family dogs are made, not born, we'd be on our way to better dog ownership in our community. I've never said crossing labs and poodles will guarentee lab temps I'm talking about the broader application of selective breeding for temperament and the thread's original question of labradoodle breed development which is not the same as f1 crosses (that distinction has already been made a number of times). I also mentioned breeding towards a milder temperament within the breed to result in a different strain such as already exists in many breeds similar to 'show lines' and 'working lines' neither is worse or better than the other they are different and the focus of their breeding goals has been different.

The majority of people I know who don't have purebreed dogs wouldn't even know that they had to answer questions to a breeder. In fact the majority of the dog owning public would have no idea about registered purebreed dogs or anything about registered breeders. They don't know a thing about byb'ers either. I know this because I was one of these people about 3 or 4 years ago before I got into dog training and the majority of my friends/family are like this now. I try to educate them but really they don't even care and can't understand why I do either. Totally agree with your comment of 'Oh I want a pub, bang you have it in under a week!' That is exactly what they want. How do you change this, particularly in society as it is now? I'm coming from the same background, but I don't think it's just the instant gratification factor I think there is more to it than that, my sister spent time on the net 'researching' because she wanted a non shedding small dog, she bought a maltese shih tzu cross because they were being touted as the best thing since sliced bread. She recognised her mistake but her 'research' skills haven't improved as she has since bought a 'miniature australian bulldog'. There are more factors at play here than just impulse buying, there is a real opening for purebred dog breeders and breed clubs to step up to the plate and promote their dogs, if they can fit the criteria, we all know that when finding a good home close enough should not be good enough and that goes for temperament as well.

From the dogz breed info page: Lab Temp: From the breed standard: Can't find the equivalent poodle one on dogz so this one is from puppiesforsale.com.au ( link ) Poodle Temp: From the breed standard: Poodle Temp: These temperaments are not the same, it would be like someone coming on here wanting a dog with a temperament like a sibe but don't want the shedding, should I tell them to suck it up and vaccum more? Especially if no other breeds were available that fitted the buyer's criteria?

I've met some full on ones too but the vast majority are very cruisy characters and laid back is a term most often used to describe them Either way there is something about them that appeals to a signficant portion of the dog owning public, remember that DOL is not representative of the majority of dog owners in this country.

Of course not. There's more to the dog than its coat. However, the myth that ordinary poodles are "challenging" dogs to live with is just that - a myth. Treat them like dogs, not fashion accessories, and they make great pets. They need exercise, they need stimulation, they need company and they need boundaries. They come in three sizes (with different temperaments) and you can have them styled anyway you like from a utility clip to full on frou frou. They've performed a range of roles over the years from water retriever, to army mascots, drug detection dogs and guide dogs. It's a versatile dog that can be a great family pet. Best comment I've had on my dogs.. "I didnt know poodles could run". Yes, folks they do get off their velvet cushions every now and again. I am happy to recommend them for families who are happy to share their lives with a dog. If they want an animated garden statue, I don't. Again the labrador is one of the most popular breeds in the country largely due to it's laid back nature (once it's out of puppy stage that is!) and to suggest that just because the majority of the public would like this temperament type because they want 'animated garden statues' is again a bit insulting to people who own and love labs. I accept people who aren't interested in dogs that shed their own body weight in hair, I don't denigrate them (or their dogs) or accuse them of being lazy or incompetent dog owners. I agree that a lot of the issues with the lack of popularity of poodles is due to perception rather than traits within the dog but when it comes to temperament there is a big difference between a dog that is happy with a walk once or twice a week and a dog that starts climbing the walls if it hasn't had enough mental stimulation, ultimately it's better for the dog that the temperament suits what the owner can handle, how many times have we denigrated people for buying a dog on looks alone and not considering the temperament which may not be compatible with their lifestyle? You can educate people till you're blue in the face but if the breed temperament doesn't suit the owner or their lifestyle then it's ultimately the dog who will suffer.

What makes you think Australian poodle owners want a dog different to poodles in other parts of the world? I love my poodles for their playfulness, their love of life and their gaiety. If I didnt' want a happy outgoing dog I'd own another breed. They're not nut cases, they have an off switch and they don't bounce off the walls. The research (which I cannot find atm to save my life it has been discussed here previously though) makes me think that Australian dog owners want a dog like a poodle but not the same as a poodle, the DD craze is not just in Australia it's happened in other countries as well, the evidence is overwhelming that there is either no breed suitable or not enough of them to fulfil the demand. Which again brings us back to the availability of animals which fit the oft-stated criteria of non-shedding. medium size laid back temperaments. We have had a number of alternative breeds suggested which many people have pointed out also have traits that aren't necessarily suited for first time dog owners, not to mention the fact that there are nowhere near enough to meet demand. You are a dog trainer, of course you find the poodle temperament no problem but would you recommend them for everyone that wants a non shedding breed? ETA I have a breed that sheds like crazy, it doesn't worry me but it worries a hell of a lot of other people, now I could educate all those people that a bit of dog hair is not the end of the world and that there are far more important things to worry about than dog hair and tell them how to manage it but wouldn't it be better just to recommend them a non-shedding or low shedding breed? Temperament should be looked at the same way, not all temperaments will suit most people I don't think of it as 'dumbing down' at all and I think that labrador owners would be insulted by that since it's the lab temp that is most desired, it is a simply a desirable trait like any other and if current breeds cannot meet those desired traits sooner or later someone will develop a breed that will.

Maybe even temp is the wrong word, more like laid back temp? Labradors are one of the most popular breeds in this country, the main reason is their easygoing temperament most people would agree that the temperament of the lab and the temperament of the poodle are poles apart, poodles are high energy dogs. I also wouldn't call a miniature poodle a medium sized dog I would call it a small dog and a lot of people don't want small dogs for various reasons. I agree with Clyde that the main reason poodles aren't as popular as their many positive traits would suggest is largely due to negative perceptions of the breed, this then becomes a PR issue. One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

RIP lovely Zara :rolleyes:

Ok so if people want a medium sized non shedding dog with an even temperament where exactly do they get one? What exactly is the purebred dog world doing to promote the options? Is no good bemoaning the development of a breed (or just a cross) when no viable purebred option exists or is available in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand even if the public were aware of them? All I see in this thread is people whinging about the existence of these crosses, without acknowledging the fact that the very idea of a breed that fits the stated traits is obviously very appealing to a large number of puppy buyers, so much so that they keep going back for more. Why? Why are people not hearing about all these disaster dogs and deciding that they are just not what they are cracked up to be? Puppy farms are churning out hundreds of these pups and still getting buyers, why?

You're assuming that most dogs get to the dog park. I can tell you that a fair proportion of dogs never leave the back yard. I see oodles in need of a good groom pretty regularly out and about. The numbers argument doesn't justify puppy mills. That's where most DDs are bred. And most of them shed anyway. I never said it justifies it I said it explains it. Lots of things don't fulfil people's expectations most people don't bother complaining especially since by the time they find out they are already attached to the pup, heaps of people come on here with problems and even when they are advised to return the pup most don't as they are already attached. Ultimately people are still buying these dogs so there has to be a reason. Perhaps it's because they aren't as bad as people here are making out, or because their good traits outweigh the bad, or because people are simply not aware of the purebred options out there, I strongly suspect that it's a combination of all three factors.

If people bothered to look at Standard Poodles and Lagotti, they'd find that niche filled by two breeds that breed true. And frankly the majority of people don't want non-shedding dogs because they don't want to have to have them groomed. They just don't connect non-shedding with high maintenance. This is true but a lot of people who are buying these dogs must be having them groomed at some point or we would be seeing matted dogs at the dog parks all the time. I ask again do you think the numbers of standard poodle and lagotto pups currently available would come close to the numbers needed? It's well and good to say wait for a pup but most people aren't going to wait excessive amounts of time for a pup, especially when no advertising or marketing has been done to promote these breeds.

IF they can get the dogs to breed true to meet their standard of non shedding and easy going temp then it would indeed fill the niche, I think that the hybrid vigor fallacy is only one aspect of the appeal of this cross. The majority of the general public are looking for medium sized healthy dogs with good temperaments that don't shed (as per Monash Anthrozoology group research) and if purebred dogs cannot fill this requirement then it matters not whether the claims labradoodle breeders are valid the fact is they are making those claims and pure breeders are not therefore the public will go to the breeder they believe has the type of dog they seek.

But just what niche is that? For a dog which is perceived to be non-shedding and isn't, calm and intelligent and isn't, healthier than either parent breed and isn't? If you want a ''non shedding'' breed which is larger than a Bichon but not a Standard Poodle then what's wrong with a Portuguese Water Dog, Standard or Giant Schnauzer, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Kerry Blue Terrier, Lagotto, the list is pretty extensive. What is wrong with them is the general public doesn't know about them! All of the breeds you have mentioned are relatively rare, if everyone who were currently shopping for labradoodles suddenly went to the breeders of these breeds how many of them would actually get pups in the near future? Most would be waiting for years if they ever got a pup at all. As others have mentioned not all of those breeds are suitable substitutes as of course it's not just size and coat that maketh the breed. You are correct in the assertion that the general public do need to me made more aware of some of the alternative non shedding breeds available to them.

I agree that's pretty reasonable

If it's extrahepatic (which it often is in small breeds) then you have a great chance of success with surgery, my dog was like a new dog afterwards he'd only shown a few mild symptoms prior to gettting really sick at about 6 months of age. I'd recommend my dog's surgeon but unfortunately she has moved overseas and works at the University of California now. Missymoo if you don't mind me asking what is the approx cost of a blood test for you? When my dog's was done it was about $160 but he had full biochemistry not just bile acids.

Huh, that's interesting. Our dog is an IW, and I just assumed that any breed with this problem would test for it before homing pups. Can any of the small breed people shed any light on why you wouldn't test? I don't know it just came up a lot in my reading that most often it's the IW breeders that routinely test. Good to hear that the Cairn breeders are stepping up to the plate and testing, apparently it crops up in Maltese a lot but I don't know whether it's routinely tested in them. The more it's tested for the better chance we have of tracking it as shunts can often get misdiagnosed and if the animal dies before the cause is identified then there is the chance that a lot of incidences are being missed. dancinbcs as Missymoo says a blood test of the pups should show up the problem and that can be done before the pup leaves for it's new home. Inheritance is hard to track but when it's common in the breed it really is a good idea to test, I can see why a lot of breeders don't though the full analysis is not cheap it would add up for a whole litter. I think it's understandable how the OP didn't know to check whether pups had been tested for this, it's still a relatively rare condition even though it has a high incidence within certain breeds. The breeder should know as it can show up in the breed but I don't blame the OP for not knowing because most people don't know about shunts until they have to learn unfortunately. Having said that the breeder may have not known if it had occured before in their lines due to so many incidences of misdiagnosis with this condition, it is often not the first thing vets think of when they come across an ill dog. My boy showed classic shunt symptoms but several vets failed to pick it up, and when it was suggested they still didn't want to consider it as it is so uncommon. He was misdiagnosed as having lead poisoning and if I hadn't looked into it further and sought several more opinions nothing would have been done and I probably would have lost him.

I do think the breeder is possibly negligent to a certain extent as when my dog had a liver shunt I researched it quite a bit and time after time yorkies were identified as having one of the highest incidences of liver shunt. Having said that I think it is a bit rare for breeders to test pups in every litter, I know that it is also common in Irish Wolfhounds and is routinely tested for but in smaller breeds I don't think it is as common to test the pups. The inheritance is not known at this stage, the fact that it is quite common in some breeds suggests a pattern of inheritance but at this point it has not actually been able to be identified. It is definetly not caused by diet as it is a condition they are born with, acquired shunts are a totally different kettle of fish. I feel your pain I had a similar struggle with health problems with my sibe until diagnosis, luckily the surgery was a success and he is a perfectly normal dog now but it's a very stressful and expensive road to travel with a young dog. I bought mine from a pet shop that had a 'health guarantee' but apparently that doesn't cover congenital defects so no love for me either, my bills were over $7k To be honest I don't think you'll have much luck getting money out of the breeder at this stage especially since the testing is not compulsory and if the pup looked ok when you got him and wasn't showing symptoms there is probably not a lot you can do if they are unwilling to assist with costs. The fact that they have tried to pass it off as dietary suggests to me that they either don't know enough about the condition (unlikely since it's common in the breed) or that they are trying to palm you off. Either way if it were me I would concentrate on trying to get the money together for the op and concentrate on your pup right now, it is a risky and stressful operation but if all goes well your pup will be much happier and healthier and that is the main thing. efs

You are preaching to the converted here though, the average puppy buyer has no real idea why breeders are so hard to communicate with, they are used to walking into a shop and buying a pup. Breeders are ambassadors for purebred dogs, it's great to screen buyers and only select the best homes but they need to say that in their emails, this email doesn't give me any impression that the breeder is screening it just says they want a deposit and you'll have to wait till a pup becomes available. If you are going to have a generic email response at least outline what information you need from the buyer, why you want it and what information you have to give them to help them make an informed choice. If you want them to ring tell them you'd like to speak to them over the phone. Yes registered pups are in demand but the purebred dog is in decline and that also needs to be addressed.