WoofnHoof

He's looking beautiful!

Thanks FM & DL Don't be too jealous DL if you saw my bank account it's not looking very healthy at all!

My other pics wont work Edit They're working now weird

Thanks Pers that looks great! Took some more pics this morning, not sure if I'm getting any better but here are a few of the ones I liked Amber making a face Louie Zen Mum's dog Lulu who I'm looking after while mum is away Sonny having a yawn

Do you think that wolves and dogs are a more meaningful comparison than, say, dingoes and dogs? Which one is the wild type? As far as I can tell they both are, but wolves and dingoes are different again. If you're going to compare dogs to an ancestral type for whatever reason, why pick wolves over dingoes, NGSD, Carolina Dog etc? I agree that it's worthy and useful to study all of them, I think the focus has been on wolves as the most available traceable ancestor of all forms of dogs so it's ultimately looking at the roots and origins which then gives us a starting point to then see how the different forms of dogs have diverged from the origin. When you are looking at dingos etc you are looking at a parallel branch of the family tree as opposed to the trunk or root to use that analogy. Wolves are the trunk/root, dogs in their various domestic and regional wild forms have all grown from that original source diverging at different stages and due to different influences so it makes sense that most of the study has been done on the source, but yes there is cause to study all forms of divergence especially when in consideration of the modern dog we need to look at how some of those branches have intertwined for example with kelpies and cattle dogs having fair influence from dingo stock in their development.

Sorry

I don't see anything here suggesting that wolves are dogs? It's accepted they are genetically the same species and do share plenty of behaviours but also that many breeds have diverged from those behaviours as well. It's quite common for the ancestral or wild type of a species to be used for comparison to the domesticated type, doesn't mean anyone is under the illusion that they are exactly the same. personally I feel the silver fox experiment is a more significant comparison of the changes associated with domestication. However nothing can replicate the domestication of dogs as it has occurred in such a diverse way with many different selection pressures applied not just tameness. Eta PF the African Painted dog (sp Lycaon pictus) cannot be the ancestor of dogs as dogs have been identified genetically as Canis lupus, not Lycaon pictus.

See my example of the Siberian husky, a dog which until very recently has been regularly interbred with wolves, although having said that it is obvious that due to this influence they are not what I would classify as a 'normal dog' and therefore probably proves both points, that in many ways they are similar and in may ways they are different, and IMO all should be taken into account particularly the degree of divergence as this can help explain the differences between breeds. That's kind of the point of the discussion, IMO it's not black and white

You can take the dog/wolf out of the environment but can you take the environment out of the dog/wolf? That is the balance we need to find, how much is inherently 'wolf' behaviour and how much is 'man made'. In the study I linked earlier there are very clear and quantifiable behaviours that correlate between dogs and wolves and correlate with alterations in morphology which have been influenced by artificial selection. A big ask! What if common behaviours between dog and wolf come from a common proto-wolf / proto-dog that is no longer available for behavioral study? I'm happy to buy into the notion the wolves have been more persecuted in Europe than North America. Has anyone seen comparative study of wolf behaviour, or, for that matter, morphology, on different continents? p.s. Anyone following this thread might want to read the article WoffnHoof posted in 'Studies About Dogs'. It makes sense that the original wolves which were the mould for the modern dog are no longer the same wolves due to those changing pressures already mentioned. They are still the same species though and share 99.9% of their genetics so fundamentally they are more similar than any other animal available for comparison. It is a matter of taking this into account and allowing for environmental and evolutionary differences which while not enough to actually separate them taxonomically are still significant nonetheless. Then like I said before you have the siberian husky and also some animals in America where interbreeding with the wild wolf population has occurred and influenced the degree to which the animal has diverged from it's ancestral form. I dont know of any comparative studies between regional wolves I know there are some morphological differences between the regions but those are very slight when compared to the differences between dog breeds so whether any differences in behavior could be correlated with it I'm not sure. I agree that human predation on wolves has influenced behaviour to a certain extent but has it influenced the wolves behaviour towards each other or just their responses to humans?

I bought the student version of Photoshop Elements (very user friendly compared to Photoshop but has less functions) for a bit over $100 (maybe $120ish I think) from Harvey Norman. It's the same as the normal version of Elements, just cheaper. I didn't have to show student ID either. You can download a trial version from adobe if you want to try it out first. Cool thanks I'll check it out

Sorry to read about your beautiful girl NM Gorgeous pic though it sounds like you have heaps of lovely memories of her

You can take the dog/wolf out of the environment but can you take the environment out of the dog/wolf? That is the balance we need to find, how much is inherently 'wolf' behaviour and how much is 'man made'. In the study I linked earlier there are very clear and quantifiable behaviours that correlate between dogs and wolves and correlate with alterations in morphology which have been influenced by artificial selection.

That analogy is incorrect, humans and apes are different species (indeed there are different species of ape too) however dogs and wolves are the same species. A more accurate analogy would be comparing subspecies or subtypes within a species. Although I agree to a certain extent that comparisons can be fraught with danger as modern dog breeds have predominantly had vastly different selection pressures placed on them as a result of selective breeding there are still certain commonalities with regards to behaviour that allow some comparisons to be made. The problem tends to occur when allowances are not made with regard to the divergence of the subtypes and the impact of domestication and artificial selection pressures. I've had this argument before with horse people who think that every horse should be barefoot because horses in the wild are barefoot and that's what nature intended, the problem with this is that horses have been selectively bred away from the wild horse in many many aspects and while some breeds have retained good and hardy feet some haven't as that hasn't been a selection priority. This is but one example of where some breeds of domestic horse have diverged significantly from the wild type and therefore cannot be effectively compared. The same has occurred with dogs but to an even greater extent, many aspects of wolf behaviour have been selectively bred away from in many breeds while others are closer to their ancestral behaviour hence why we have so called 'primitive breeds'. It doesn't mean that the ancestral wolf doesn't play a big part in interpretation of behaviour it just means that it's not the only factor we should consider.

An interesting article comparing the behaviour of different breeds of dog to ancestral wolf behaviour. Anim. Behav., 1997, 53, 297–304 Paedomorphosis affects agonistic visual signals of domestic dogs DEBORAH GOODWIN, JOHN W. S. BRADSHAW & STEPHEN M. WICKENS Anthrozoology Institute, University of Southampton Link to full article

That is interesting, although I'd hesitate to say novel, most people would agree that the modern wolf is not necessarily the exact same animal that dogs were derived from while remaining true to the fact that they are the same species. However in some breeds like the Siberian husky where interbreeding with wolves was still happening until relatively recently there has been less divergence between the types IMO. One study that looked at behaviour showed very little differences in specific behaviours between Siberian huskies and wolves but found marked differences with other breeds, which showed a correlation with morphological similarities as well. I'll see if I can find the paper. ETA Anim. Behav., 1997, 53, 297–304 Paedomorphosis affects agonistic visual signals of domestic dogs DEBORAH GOODWIN, JOHN W. S. BRADSHAW & STEPHEN M. WICKENS Anthrozoology Institute, University of Southampton Link

Thanks Snook I think photoshop might be a bit exxy for me

Thanks for the info Cas Do you know much about the donkeys as guardians aspect? ETS please PM me if you do I don't want to take the thread OT

Thanks Jesskah, I'm on holidays this week so I'm going to try and get some more practice in

The Maremmas would do well with Roos and its very unlikely that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs.Thats not what happens in any other situation where the dogs work with native fauna or domestic animals. Cool thanks I'll pass that on

I was asked the other day if mareemas would be good guardians for kangaroos, one of my workmates is a wildlife carer and apparently they have trouble with dogs and foxes worrying their rehabs. One of the concerns was that the Roos would become habituated to all dogs and then be more vulnerable when released. Steve have you heard of Roos being successfully used with mareemas? I've also heard of donkeys being used as guardians but I know next to nothing about them so if anyone knows if donkeys would be suitable for this please let me know and I'll pass on the info

Good news the old boy is starting to bounce back and behave like his old self again He's still on meds which I gather is a steriod of some sort so wont know for sure if he's in the clear until he comes off those but improvement is always a good sign

My mums Val loves just being around people, she will fetch a ball forever so that's always good fun and an easy way to keep her occupied

Couple more

Thanks rottifan I didn't go into it too much in the OP but there are other symptoms as well which suggest a neurological problem, circling and disorientation etc. He's a small breed old dog so unlikely to have injured himself in the back end but she will probably get a few different opinions before taking the plunge anyway.

Fish or seal might also feature. It does suggest that Sibes might be expected to be more tolerant of a high protein, high fat, less cereal based diet than many other breeds. Yes, definitely, didn't think of that. And I think that's definitely the case - Akira has issues with chicken, which would be fairly unlikely to survive in such a cold climate, but she thrives on her new salmon based kibble. We keep her cereals down, and she gets a small amount of kibble and then raw mixed in at every meal. My limited googling suggests reindeer as the predominant staple in Siberia. As for chihuahuas, hmm maybe tacos?