WoofnHoof

I also think it is the minority that are truly forced to abandon their animals. In my experience, what most people are willing spend on their animals has more to do with their subjective feelings about the animals than their actual financial situation. It's the same at the clinics I've worked in - some poor folks will sell the car to raise money to treat their sick pet, whereas some far richer folks will much rather PTS a treatable animal and replace it if that's going save them $50. (Of course, the fun starts when the wife has one opinion and the husband another!) I agree I know many people who are in a much better financial position than I am and they even seem a little proud of the fact that they would never even consider spending any significant amount on vet bills etc. I understand that some people aren't willing to go into debt for the sake of their animals but I'm not even talking about thousands of dollars just mentioning a vet bill of a few hundred sends these people into a rant about 'why would you spend that on a dog? Just shoot it'. A lot of people just don't see any real value in their pets, yet why have them if they don't believe they are worth anything?

Those are just staggering numbers

Hi Steve can you please recommend working mareema breeders in Qld? A guy I work with is interested in getting one or two more for guarding his sheep and would like to know of a good breeder he is in the Toowoomba area. He has a mareema already but he doesn't think it is a very good worker he is also concerned that if he gets a pup it might learn bad behaviours from the current one do you think this would be a risk? Would it be better for him to try and get an adult? TIA

Yep after you've had horses dogs are a walk in the park Haing said that though a lot of stuff for dogs does cost more, I know it costs me more for vaccinations per dog than it does per horse, mind you you save a lot being able to vaccinate the horse yourself, that might change if we get a hendra vax though, I'll happily take a hendra vax any way it comes the sooner the better. Dental for the dogs was a lot dearer than it was for the horses although it's less frequent.

If only it were that easy. Why isnt it that easy? They're all tagged anyway, now they just get tagged with an electronic tracking device as well. If it wasnt easy the Europeans wouldnt have implemented the system. The guy was talking about tagging as if it were a solution to the whole problem, it isn't, it's like saying microchipping is the solution to the puppy farm problem. Tagging them isn't going to ensure that they only go through approved abattoirs, it has to be backed up by policy and enforcement. The proposed improvements sound good on paper but I'm more interested in what's happening on the ground, I'd like to see a follow up report on how those changes are working in the most practical sense they should be being implemented now before trade resumes so that it's up and running well by the time we are ready to supply cattle again.

If only it were that easy.

As far as I'm aware they don't have animal cruelty laws yet so I doubt there were any inspectors in there, apparently they have a draft law that hasn't been implemented so hopefully someone has had a fire lit up their bum to get that on the move.

Yeah I've heard the reports it comes down to action though, I think most people would like to see action happening before our cattle go back in very real terms. Show us what's happening in those abattoirs now, show us the changes being made, at the moment it's all just words. I don't see the point in resuming trade until we have something concrete in place and evidence that it's working and being done.

Dont you think that if they saw worse they would have shown the footage or atleast given a commentary? I was involved with animal lib many years ago and they always drag out that line to get people wondering just how much worse it could have been. I have no doubt there are truths and falsehoods on both sides but the focus now should be on fixing the problem rather than on what coulda shoulda woulda been. They're not going to stop eating mutton and beef so we're better off getting on with it and helping them clean up their act. Maybe it's true maybe it isn't I've heard a few different versions one said that some of the footage wasn't suitable for Australian TV so I'm not sure what exactly that means, no doubt I probably don't want to know. I know I've heard first hand what goes on in some Australian abattoirs so I'm probably a bit more likely to lean towards the worst in the case of other countries which have little to no animal welfare regulations. Ultimately they have to want our help, to accept our help, be prepared to follow our guidelines and to understand why it's needed and why it's important to do so. Thanks Lo Pan It's an interesting topic, obviously more interesting than the topic I've chosen for my assignment which I keep distracting myself from lol

Gorgeous! Wow if I saw them in a pound I would totally tag them as husky x

It's been doing the rounds on the horse forums too, trouble is that he asserts that the problem can be fixed quite easily and quickly, which then begs the question that if it could be fixed easily and quickly why wasn't it? I suspect the solution is neither quick nor easy at all. I've also heard that what farmers are shown on their MLA sponsored tours are not necessarily the full story either, so it's very hard to know the extent of the problem, one of the people who worked on the report was saying on the ABC radio that it was widespread not just a few places, and that the footage shown was not the worst that they saw. Either way it is obvious that change was needed, regardless of whether people agree on how to go about it, because any facility that treats animals badly should not be supported with the supply of cattle and that needs to be enforced.

That is weird I don't really know why people wouldn't want them compensated even if they did know about it, which I doubt. I dare say many farmers realised that conditions over there aren't all that great compared to here but that's not the same as knowing exactly how bad it is and how much progress was not being made by the industry groups on the ground over there, MLA is hardly going to put out a newsletter talking about how truly awful it is in some facilities and how they aren't making much progress in some areas so I don't see much point in penalising individual producers for believing what they have been told.

Yep I understand what you're saying. On the issue of compensation, though, I've heard plenty of people saying - why should the tax payer compensate the farmers when 'they knew' what was happening. That'll be another interesting debate when/if it happens. Wait for people to forget about the animal welfare issue when they get hit in the pocket. That's human nature, woof. As people have said in this thread, it's not all black and white. It's all a bit quiet at the moment - wait to see what happens next week. Yeah it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. You must be moving in different circles to me I think I haven't really heard much complaining about the taxpayers footing the bill, I move in horsey cirlces though so most people have or know cattle and the land so there is a certain amount of acceptance that public money is needed to fill the gap (although it sounds like most of it is coming from some fund that predates MLA?). I've also been listening to ABC radio (god knows why I turned over in the first place but it's slightly less boring than usual with the chat about the live export thing ) and it's mostly farmer sympathetic there too. I do find that being rural there tends to be pretty vast differences between opinions in city v country it's quite interesting really. Me personally I have no problem with the government picking up the tab we bail out all sorts of industries all the time, even those with foreign interests. There are lots of things that government pays for that I don't agree with like expensive flagpoles and ugly statues but that's the way it goes some things you agree with some things you don't.

Raz it's more in the context that farmers are calling for trade to resume asap without acknowledging the time it will take to ensure changes take place. I think the issue of whether live export should be banned completely is seperate to the immediate issue and I get the impression that farmers are afraid that trade won't resume at all. I don't think this will happen I think trade will resume fairly soon especially with Indonesia cooperating (in words at least hopefully action will follow). I think the long term future of live export will continue to be an issue and will continue to be debated as it should be but like I said I think that is a seperate debate as this issue arose due to specific circumstances. Katrina I agree there is not enough meeting of minds in this issue, it is frightening when your livelihood is threatened and I think most people are very understanding of that, that's why I was convinced that compensation was pretty much a given no one wants to see farmers go broke. I do think that it's not just a matter of resuming trade based on promises, I think we need concrete assurances that standards will be enforced not just put in place. Hopefully that can be worked out sooner rather than later for everyone's sake, especially the cattle.

Katrina look I get where you're coming from but there are several conflicting reports about how widespread the abuse is, some have said it is up to 95% of facilities that are a problem, so unless you have been to all those abattoirs and can give us a more accurate percentage of how many abattoirs are unacceptable then we simply have to take the word of the people who have been there. The problem is we have farmers all over the country objecting to the interim ban but so far I haven't heard much in the way of solutions coming from this camp so it just sounds like farmers want trade to resume regardless, it's easy to say you've been paying the MLA to sort it out it's their problem but if they had no power to enforce anything in Indonesia then without drastic action nothing would have been done. Many farmers spoken to agree that the cruelty is unacceptable but have no ideas about how to enact change, so when farmers call for resumption of trade even though the core issue is unresolved then you are going to get people thinking farmers are aware of cruelty and willing to send their animals there anyway. I understand that it's income and bills to pay etc but there will be compensation available and assistance for those affected. It's very easy to tell people they don't know but say you are right and it's only a few abattoirs that are a problem, how do you then ensure that no cattle goes there? You might think people are uninformed but I think everyone knows that once an animal is sold you have bugger all control over it's fate, you might think that 5% isn't much but for most of us it's far too many cattle being treated in the most abhorrent way. Until cruelty is no longer sanctioned by government, in that there are currently no laws to protect the welfare of animals, then we can expect that some of the cattle that will be sent there will be treated that way, and for most of us that isn't acceptable so we are happy for no cattle to be sent there until the issue is resolved. Many people are against live export simply because it is so difficult to have any assurances about what another country will do with the animals we supply, and i think it is an important issue that needs to be looked at because we cannot take the moral high ground with animal abuse in this country when we are essentially sanctioning cruelty occurring offshore. Most people here will scream to high heaven when a dog abuser gets a slap on the wrist in court but that is the result of a larger problem in that we are not as advanced as we think we are in animal welfare. Many many people still see it is as secondary issue taking a back burner to jobs etc well this proves that animal welfare is just as important as jobs if not more so because one issue can impact an entire industry.

There are often a million things going on that we aren't aware of, our brains are designed in such a way as to block out much of the 'noise' this is useful because people whose brains don't have this automatic filtering system (such as autistic people and those with sensory perception problems) can have a terrible time trying to function in a world that is assaulting them with sights, sounds, smells etc that the brain is not designed to deal with. Luckily for dogs their brains are designed to cope with the intensity of input that their senses are capable of perceiving, and many dogs are excellent at interpreting this wealth of information that is too subtle for most humans to perceive. When you make a decision in your mind your behaviour changes even if you don't realize it, and since dogs are very good at observing and interpreting human behaviour they then react accordingly. Temple Grandin talks about 'animal geniuses' which she refers to as individual animals who have a higher than average ability to interpret the information they have and use it in novel ways, it's a fascinating concept and dogs are the most amazing animals of all when it comes to bridging the communication gaps between them and humans. It's not extra sensory perception so much as heightened sensory perception and brilliant information processing capabilities that many dogs possess.

Don't know depends whether it was needed I suppose I don't really know whether there is a shortage of human milk to justify it but I suppose no one would bother with it if they didn't think there was a need - or a market - for it.

Now available at app store :D Linky A little confused though when I went and purchased it just now on the ipad it said $3.99 but on that link it says $2.99 Oh well still cheaper than the horsey records app and I've already put the dogs in there

Few more

Hi FM as suggested here are my (beginner) action shots of Miss Daisy

Thanks FM I'm not sure how to get the horse to be sharper than the background in the pics though, what is the best setting for daylight action photos?

Hmmm I still seem to suck quite majorly at action shots Most of these were either taken in sports mode or shutter priority auto?

She could say the sky is blue and she'd still get a peep out of me, Poods. I'll smack my head into a brick wall before I ever agree with a thing she says, such is my loathing for her Lol I agree with her on a couple of things, doesn't mean everything else she says isn't completely bonkers, after all even a broken clock's right twice a day :D Interesting about PDE2 I wonder if any breeders or breed clubs will be approaching her to show off examples of how they've improved their breed? Logic would suggest that stonewalling is probably not the best strategy on this issue...

That's the case with pretty much any animal welfare issue really, most people in most industries know what's going on and don't like it but nothing is ever done until it looks like it might cost someone votes. IMO animal welfare should be right up there with health and education in terms of funding and regulation because it's not until something like this happens that people start to realize just how important it is for a huge amount of industries.

Don't panic Raz we still live export to heaps of other countries, at least for now. From what I can tell there is a huge push to get abattoirs up north up and running again which could be a part of the plan too, far better long term solution than trying to convince other countries to slaughter meat humanely when they have no reason and no inclination to do so.