WoofnHoof

Thanks! Will definetly get some reading and practicing happening

Great pics! I went to the local MPW today too wasn't game enough to take my new camera though! Ours had lots of lovely well behaved dogs too it was a really nice day out. My two had enormous fun in the lure coursing :D

Thanks tlc!

My mum bought me this very cool camera yesterday so I've been trying it out I'm very much a camera numpty so any tips on how to use it would be awesome It's a nikon coolpix P500 that's all I know

Lol I sympathize with the bare cupboards mine are looking very sad as well I don't know I mean I've dealt with some pretty horrific injuries with horses and despite having bugger all training I can get in there and do what needs to be done without falling to pieces so I'm not convinced it's necessary. I'm just not sure that this level of desensitization is necessary or even beneficial. I think there is no doubt that how the students are indoctrinated to it also impacts on whether it becomes problematic. At the particular uni I'm thinking of there is most definitely the mentality of 'if you have an objection then you just can't hack it' which I think complicates the issue further. I've witnessed and assisted with all sorts of procedures including euthanasia, I can understand the desire for as much practice as possible but I do wonder if it's as harmless as people seem to think. Either way I am glad that there are unis which produce competent graduates without the use of non recoveries and I would like to see some long term research on the psychological and philosophical implications as I find it a very interesting issue.

It depends, the issue is not as clear cut as getting something out of death it's whether it's ideal to be training vets in this way. I'm not convinced it is, I'm not convinced it isn't either that's why I'd like to see more study done about the impact on both current students and potential students. I never said it makes you callous I said there is a possible risk that this type of desensitization could be detrimental, as I said earlier there isn't enough evidence to make a conclusion either way but I do think it's an important question and one that should be asked. We already know that there are psychological consequences for pound staff and vets who routinely euthanase animals, as well as other industries such as abattoir workers, we shouldn't be so quick to assume there are no detrimental effects to performing non recovery surgeries for the sake of practice. You should know better than to suggest that a moral or ethical objection to certain practices is indicative of being scared or squeamish, as someone who works in animal welfare surely you are sick to death of people assuming that an interest in welfare makes you a tree hugging PETA loving all-animals-should-be-free hippy???

jackie funnily enough plenty of vets are trained here and overseas without the use of non recovery surgeries, given that animal use in science is guided by the three rs (reduce, replace, refine) do you not think that there are many alternative training optiins that may be just as effective at preparing students for the 'real world' as you so emphatically put it?

Actually the POV I'm interested in is the impact on the vet students themselves, the articles I linked to suggested that there may be a negative impact both on current students as well as prospective students as they may be less inclined to undertake a course on the basis of non recovery surgeries being performed when it may not be absolutely necessary. Given that many unis can and do produce competent vets with the use of alternatives then I think it's worth further investigation.

Staranais I'm not talking about the entire content of the article I'm taking about the references to non recovery surgeries and desensitization as a concept for further investigation in terms of their relevance to this discussion. When I read an article which discusses a number of points I analyze those points individually, it matters not whether I agree with the entire philosophy of the author what matters is which points might be relevant to what I want to know. Those are reference articles for the original research I linked, the author of that research did not base their study on the whole of the article their reference was only pertaining to the section on veterinary training protocols and the possible impacts of desensitization. No one is asking you to agree with the whole of the article or even any of it, and you certainly don't have to agree with it even if you do have a problem with non recovery surgeries.

I'm not sure from what I can tell there was no differentiation between specialisations, I don't know at which point in their study vets at this uni specialise but since the study took results from 1st, 3rd and 5th years it's probably across the board, but that would definetly be an interesting aspect which should be looked into further. I've done a bit more digging and found some of the reference articles which are really interesting, hopefully a bit more computer friendly as they are PDF reports not powerpoint. Ethically sourced animal cadavers and tissue Training the animal doctor: Caring as a clinical skill

Rightyo thanks buddy. What the second linky? I cant find it. Here tis

Yeah not sure what the go is with the first file I think it's a PowerPoint converted file, essentially it surveyed the preferences for donated cadavers vs live terminal surgeries, students in early years showed preferences for the donated cadavers whereas the students in later years preferred live surgeries. The comments were interesting they talked about benefits and negatives of both, some students comments were controversial 'stop trying to ruin the vet course' and 'this is vet science not animal welfare'. The second one referred to desensitization as part of a talk on the role of vets in animal welfare, interesting stuff.

I get your point (and no I didnt think you thought vets were non feeling bastards) and thanks for clarifying. Will have a squizz at your linky No worries, here's another one which touches on the same subject Link they spoke at a seminar back in Feb unfortunately I missed it as I had to work.

This was the original study I heard about which sparked my interest in the subject, the student comments were extremely interesting as were the authors comments when I spoke to her. There is no assumption or generalisation here about grads that don't care, it's about whether the desensitisation that occurs both as a result of the non recoveries as well as the way in which the concept is introduced to students could impact on their entire working life philosophy. There is a perception and an attitude that is hard to convey on a forum but having experienced it I do think it's worth further investigation. It does annoy me when people think that because I think the idea could have merit and warrants further study that somehow that means that I think all vet students trained this way are non feeling bastards! No doubt it also annoys vets who have been trained using other means when people assume that they are compete numpties and spend their first few years fumbling around killing pets!

It's great that you are not hardened, but I have heard a different opinion from a graduating vet. Some of my own experiences have led me to wonder whether it's really the best option for gaining surgical experience and whether it's as harmless as it appears on the surface. Many universities use internships as an alternative to non-recovery surgeries in the training process, I'd be interested in any evidence which shows significant differences between one or the other.

I don't think it is the best of a bad situation though, I think it does contribute to an ugly side of veterinary practice. I know exactly why the phrase 'they are going to die anyway' sits badly with RottnBullies, it sits badly with me too because I've seen hints of it with vets treating my animals. Basically throwing in the towel because they are pretty much knocking on deaths door. It's going to die anyway so why bother wasting time and money figuring out what's wrong with it? Many vets I've dealt with over the years have had this demeanor, maybe it's their experience maybe it's their training but I do think that it's an issue which is often ignored and IMO needs further investigation. To me it's not the welfare of these animals as people are so quick to point out, they will die anyway, however the toll on our young, learning veterinary students where they learn that 'oh well it's going to die anyway so make sure you don't cry or have any moral objections to it because that means you're just too damn soft and namby pamby to be a vet!!!', well that's a different story altogether. A vet tech student had an objection to a dissection experiment and was told by the lecturer "how are you going to be a vet tech if you can't handle that?!" (said with a certain amount of scorn and contempt), the problem is that people seem to think that a moral objection to something is somehow a sign of weakness. Excessive desensitisation is something I have a real problem with, we want vets to be hardened about death while training yet we want them to be sensitive and understanding while treating our own pets? Can you see how this would create a conflicting set of ethical values?

I'm not going to dignify this sort of hyperbole with a response. Shooting the messenger rather than addressing the issue, typical of those insensitive to companion animal welfare. Working with a responsible surgeon capable of lots of procedures will do more for vets than one look and kill session at uni. Computer programmes exist to overcome these distasteful situations. Study them and learn. The Dr Mengele excuse that they were going to die anyway just doesn't cut it anymore. How we treat companion animals is a foretaste of how we treat each other. Is that another refugee camp we are building? Thank you. Don't forget Descartes. Often when folks say "this is the best way and the way it was always done" means it is the cheapest, least expensive and nobody has bothered to think outside the square. Particularly bothersome about the OP's post is the report of a lack of supervision. Supervised practical experience in real life situations, similar as to what is practiced in modern (human) Teaching Hospitals would be better, if perhaps more expensive and requiring a change in the Vet practice course. I agree I think desensitization is a huge problem in universities, yes you have to be tough to be a vet but you don't have to be hard and I think the two often get mixed up.

Has the vet done any blood tests?

I really think that places like Fraser where there is an abundance of carnivores should be treated a bit like an African wildlife park, you wouldn't go wandering on foot among wild lions and cheetahs etc so why do people think that wild dogs are any safer? I think the whole management strategy of the island needs to change people are suffering and the dingo population is suffering it can't continue like this.

Do you have any other on call vets you can ring? Even a horse vet should have painkillers that will work on a dog and most have a bit of experience with dogs, they will come to you but it costs of course. Most vets will give you advice over the phone either way so I'd try other emergency vets too.

Yep that makes sense it looks like some people call it pool fencing but I've always thought of pool fencing as the tubular stuff so it gets confusing! the roll top is great because it just slots over the star pickets so most of my fence didn't need to be wired up only a couple of gaps needed to be pulled together.

Not if you use mesh panels, they are cheaper than pool fencing and very sturdy, I have 6' star pickets a foot into the ground and they aren't going anywhere. We had a mini cyclone go through in summer that flattened sheds and my fence didn't budge. Hmmmm, you have me interested now WnH!!! What sort of mesh panels are they???? Where are they available from? Would they be suitable for making pens for pet sheep or soft animals that dont push?? Im looking for ideas to create some pens for sheep and llamas for possible containment when sick etc..... I got mine from stratco ages ago but most fencing or rural steel supply places should have them, sometimes you can pick them up second hand too they are usually 3m long and vary in height. I like the rolled style in my pic above because you can just slot them over the star picket but you can get flat ones too which you can wire onto the picket the last time I looked at them the flat ones were only about $30, when I got the rolled edge ones they were only $65 a panel but they've gone up a bit since then I think. ETA panels on eBay like mine Link These are the flat sort that are quite a bit cheaper but they have to be tied on with wire Link

I'm not at home atm so can't take a pic but here's an old one not too clear sorry but you can see the panels and the star pickets I've just wired a cyclone gate to it.

Not if you use mesh panels, they are cheaper than pool fencing and very sturdy, I have 6' star pickets a foot into the ground and they aren't going anywhere. We had a mini cyclone go through in summer that flattened sheds and my fence didn't budge.

I tend to agree with this, you have to totally abandon any prior experience with biddable dogs, they are a completely different kettle of fish. I was speaking to a stranger the other day who noticed my sibe and asked me if malamutes are good family dogs, I wasn't really sure how to answer I said they aren't like most dogs and they aren't the easiest dogs to own but I didn't know whether they would be classed as a 'good family dog', in the end I just told her to speak to breeders and find out what they think because they are the best people to know whether someone can cope with the breed. So what do mal breeders generally say when someone asks if they are a good family dog?